I'm back dating to the Mid 70's through Early 80's, partly by necessity, partly by choice. What can the experts here tell me about Santa Fe TOFC trains during this era? When did the Double stacks and FuelFoilers come into use? Also, how long did the Cigar Band Paint Scheme survive? I know it was being replaced by the Yellowbonnets around 1972, but did any of the Cigars survive into the early 1980's? If I hadn't kept "updating" my "Model" Santa Fe Railway every year to keep it like "today", I might remember the answers to these questions. I have some good books about the Santa Fe, but they have been no help on these topics. I have an all Yellowbonnet Fleet now and would like to add a little diversity later on. How long did the F-Units survive before they all became CF-7's?
Brent, A lot of questions, and unfortunately so few answers!! From my own experiences, I never saw cigar bands after about 1972. Double stacks really started in the mid 70s, I think. Most of the F units were gone by the mid 70s, or had been converted. Also, check this web site out, as it may be of some help: http://www.atsfrr.com Good luck on the backdating and Happy Modeling!! John
Re: Intermodal The Santa Fe felt that TOFC was the way of the future and didn't get in on the double stack market until the mid- to late-80's (I think). Btw, the first double stack car was built for the SP by ACF in 1977. Re: Paint schemes I don't know how aggressively ATSF repainted their locos in the '70's. Probably at the next major shopping/rebuild. There were probably still a few in the early '80's, but not very many. (Btw, I think "cigar band" refers to the paint on the F-units, not the road switchers. The site referenced below calls the road switcher scheme "pinstripe.") Re: CF7's The first CF7 (2649) was rebuilt from F7A 262C in Feb '70. The last CF7 (2417) was rebuilt from F7A 275L in Mar '78. Only cab units were rebuilt. Here is a page with info about the CF7's and the dispostion of the rest of the F-units. Dwight [ 21 February 2001: Message edited by: Dwightman ]
Thanks guys, this will help a little bit. I should be more well versed in this time frame, but I really hadn't taken time to look behind me until recently.
Double stacks started showing up late 1980's and then on selected lines only because of clearance problems. Took a few years to get all main routes ready to received double stacks. Fuel foilers were 1970's along with conventional TOFC. In most cases, diesels with the original blue and yellow paint scheme were repainted as the class was rebuilt/updated. Your best source of info is Cinthia Priest's two volumes on Santa Fe Diesels. This is my bible because it gives rebuilt dates, disposal dates, modifications, etc. Volume two would give you all you really need for what you are doing. Bob Miller
You guys hit it right on the head...double stacks in the 80s and fuel foilers 70s...don't know what I was thinkin !! I also agree that Cinthia Priests books are great. I don't own them ($$$$) but oddly eneough our local library has them!! Happy Railroading!! John
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by atsfman: Double stacks started showing up late 1980's and then on selected lines only because of clearance problems. Took a few years to get all main routes ready to received double stacks. Fuel foilers were 1970's along with conventional TOFC. In most cases, diesels with the original blue and yellow paint scheme were repainted as the class was rebuilt/updated. Your best source of info is Cinthia Priest's two volumes on Santa Fe Diesels. This is my bible because it gives rebuilt dates, disposal dates, modifications, etc. Volume two would give you all you really need for what you are doing. Bob Miller<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> GEES! What was I thinking? I should of e-mailed you first thing, Bob. I still thank everyone for all the insite. I've always been a Santa Fe Fan First, but with the Merger, I've sort of lost track of everything. Maybe that's why a while back I could of sworn that Santa Fe had GP40's and 40-2's. Remember that one Bob?
Hey Bob, I just remembered what it was I wanted to ask you the other day! What is a "pig" train? A train of stock cars loaded with pigs for the packing plant? I haven't heard the term until a few weeks ago.
A Pig Train is TOFC - as in "Piggyback" train. I thought spine cars started c 1980. What's a "cigar band loco?" [ 26 February 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yankinoz: What's a "cigar band loco?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is an FT in the "cigar band" paint scheme: http://donross.railspot.com/sf118l.jpg Notice how the logo on the nose resembles a cigar band. I believe this term has even been applied to BNSF H2 locos. Dwight PS Since it appears that Railspot is down, I've changed the picture to a link to the picture. [ 27 February 2001: Message edited by: Dwightman ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by atsfman: Double stacks started showing up late 1980's and then on selected lines only because of clearance problems. Took a few years to get all main routes ready to received double stacks. Fuel foilers were 1970's along with conventional TOFC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bob - looks like you are right on the money... I got these dates from MR's guide to Intermodal Equipment & Operations (by Jeff Wilson) and here is the low down on spine and double stacks: ATSF started testing 6 unit fuel foilers in 1977 and introduced 10 unit cars in 1978. Itel did not start making "Impack" cars until 1982 - Trailer Train ran these. The 4 wheel front runners were tested in 1978 and entered regular service in 1981. All-purpose spine cars (will carry containers too) do not appear until 1988. SP tested the first double stacks in 1977. Regular service is hard to define as initially they were very restricted. It looks like all the various double stacks were manufactured with bulkheads until 1987 (with the exception of the Budd Lo-Pac 2000 - but it did not sell well.) The Gunderson Twin Stack (with bulkheads) was not introduced until 1985. Their Maxi Stack (no bulkheads) in 1988. The Maxi-Stack III is the most popular well car and it does not get introduced until 1989. Hope this helps determine what's appropriate for your railroad
The "Cigar Band" Scheme I'm asking about is the Blue Car Body, Yellow Nose/Tail and Yellow Pinstripe near the top of the Car Body. SF used this on Freight Locos till the Yellowbonnet Scheme was introduce. I was wondering if any of these survived into the Late-70's. And yes, the "PIG" Trains I'm talking about are TOFC, not Live Stock. [ 27 February 2001: Message edited by: Maxwell Plant ]
Brent, Goto QStation and click on "ATSF Index of ABPR." Check out the pictures posted by Jim Hanrahan in the EMD and GE sections. They should be helpful. Dwight
Sorry for the lapse, lots of stuff going on. Brent, I do remember the infamous GP40 stuff. But I will tell you a secret (ssshhh, I goof up too once in awhile.) I can call it senior moment, I don't know your excuse. Anyway, the old blue and yellow scheme, I suspect some of those were around into the late 1970's just because they hadn't got to Cleburne or wherever. Santa Fe usually waited on a series of engines until the class started in rebuild (or rehab). They would repaint to warbonnet and usually (but not always) renumber up front. The U23B's are an example of a class that kept its original numbers until the bitter in. Boy those Atlas U23B's are great engines. They were used in the territory I model, although they were turned back a year 1988 before my modeling year 1989. I decided to fudge. Congratulations on returning to the true Santa Fe in your modeling. Now what was that I saw about an H2 paint scheme??? Bob Miller
I call them "Brain-Farts" Bob. Dwight, thanks for the link. I don't have alot of time right now, got to get some sleep for work, I will check it out soon.
Oooooh! That's a sweet site! Thanks again Dwight! I found some pics in there that show High nose Geeps in Yellowbonnet with F7B's and a Geep 20 in Blue and Yellow Cigar Band. Date:1977!
First time I ever heard it called that. It's always been discribed to me as the Cigar-Band. Thanks for the info... By the way, I see you're new here, WELCOME! I hope to see you on the N-Scale Forum too! [ 10 March 2001: Message edited by: Maxwell Plant ]
