I just bought the Spectrum J class and while the engine looks good, I am diapointed with the performance. The thing will not move until 15 or 20 on my Tech II. Another friend said I had one that was made for DCC and would only run well with DCC. The engine came in the long narrow box. I thought these engines were DCC ready, needing a small change in the wiring. I really like slow speed and this engine ins't capable of anything below 20 or so scale mph. I don't really want to send the thing back, what can I do?
The starting at 15-20mph on that transformer is normal for practically ANY engine you can buy. It doesn't mean that it starts moving at a scale 15mph, it just takes that much voltage to get the thing moving. It will still start out moving slow, but at low speeds, the transformer speed controls are not very accurate. Since no two models are geared the same, the speed gauge is more for entertainment value than anything else---especially when you get into models that are geared to a certain speed range like the shay which will go MAYBE 20mph wide open. On that Tech II transformer, the speed control will be sitting at 100mph (or whatever the top is), but the shay will only be going 20mph scale speed. As far as DCC goes, the only difference you would see running on a DCC system is greater speed control--generally speaking, you could probably start it off slower on DCC than on analog and you could change minute variations in the speed easier (aka 41 to 42mph)--and see the results. In conclusion, chances are that there is nothing wrong with your model. That's just the nature of the beast, so to speak. good luck, Kevin
I noticed that on mine also, but when I switched it over onto pulse control, it ran very slowly although rather jerky. All the Bachmann engines I have do this. The Varney, Mantua and Revell engines are not jerky, and the only three Rivarossi checked, seem to run smoothly on pulse control, no jerking, but a little faster. My guess is that all these late model engines are geared higher than the older ones, so more voltage is required to overcome inertia. The only DCC engine I have seen run, was a Mantua Pacific at a club, with the DC-71 motor converted to DCC. It ran for awhile, then the motor burnt up. The general consensus was that it was running too slowly for too long a time, pulling 12 passenger cars. Comments?
Watash, My only comment would be surprise that you have Bachmann locos. I've read your posts in the past and thought you held these type locos in disdain. Your machining skills and the models you've built and all. Anyway, I can only add that I have a Bachmann Niagara, I use DCC, but have not installed a decoder in this loco, I ran it analog when I got it and it ran pretty well, not great mind you, but decent low speed. It has been in its box since, waitin its turn. Regarding the burnt out DC-71, I am rather surprised, how long was it running? I assume the decoder used was rated high enough for the motors current requirement, or the decoder would have died instead. Do you think the motor would have burnt out on straight DC as well, in the same conditions? Gary
I do have a Bachman Spectrum Mountain locomotive that will just crawl along. It is quiet, looks good, and is the second best steamer in my entire roster. I just was suprised at the difference in performance between the two. The J however, looks good enough to just sit under glass. The lurching and sluggish slow speeds I will just have to correct myself I suppose. BTW- The best steamer I have is the Heritage 0-8-0 switcher.
I also had a problem w/ a Spectrum steamer. I recently purchased a Consolidation 2-8-0 and sent it back to the factory. I should be getting it back within the next week. With clean wheels and spotless track, it was jerking all over the place. Plus, the link between the cab and tender was biased to pushing UP and creating a tendency to derail. As if that wasnt bad enough, the engine would sporadically and without any pattern make a grinding sound.... and then for no reason run smoothly. However, trying to keep the faith, I am willing to give Bachman a shot at rectifying the thing and making good on it. I have other Spectrum products that ran flawlessly out of the box and still do. So Bachman gets the benefit of the doubt and I shall see how thier fix (or replacement) works out. -Kitbash
I've a Spectrum J, and it too ran shaky from the start. But after logging about twenty hours on it, it steadily improved on performance. Perhaps this is a break in period?
I have yet to have any real problems with my new Spectrum steam. However, there seems to be a trade off between Bachmann and Life-Like steam. With Bachmann the engines are very affordable, but quality control is not great. With Life-Life, quality control is great while prices are very high. Bachmann is very good about quickly remeding most major problems, so I will contintue to buy from both companies. KEEP THE NEW STEAM COMING!!! Eric
I too have a decent encounter with a Spectrum loco. A GP-30 and sadly it out pulls my SD-7 Proto 2000! And all my other loco's in diesels! I won't even compare it to my steamers! I know the diesel will loose! But to Watash's question I have a question on the DC-71, I know it was open frame design but it all comes down to the armature, was it a 3 pole armature? Or 5 pole armature? And also was it a basically wound motor with the windings or was it a Skew wound armature? Depending on its interior and mainly the armature and also the brushes, this is why is burnt up! The 3 pole regular wound motors WILL NOT handle the load from DCC! And the running it slow was even worse! I bet it cooked the brushes no matter what type or shape or what duty the brushes were! Now on the contrary, if the motor had a 5 pole motor they WILL handle DCC and even if it was not Skew wound, but the Skew winding is a stronger way of winding the armature to handle the load sent to the motor and also these come with a way better set of brushes and if you all pay attention they are also precissionly balanced which makes a tremendous difference with DCC control. I have done the repowering jobs more times then any of us in this site has hair on our heads just because someone took an old loco with an old 3 pole motor and made it DCC and the DCC cooked it! And I fitted a 5 pole motor in it and a word of advice to everyone, if your going to install DCC please do yourself a favor, TAKE OUT THE OLD MOTORS AND REPLACE THEM WITH NEW CAN MOTORS! If you don't your just asking to spend more money then you planed! [ 10 March 2002, 00:07: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
Gary, I do have Bachmann locos because my family bought them as presents for me during the time I did not have any layout to run them. I bought one Bachmann 4-8-4 at a Hobby Shop going out of business later on myself. Shortly there after My father died and I did nothing with the hobby for a year or so, then set up a test track to see which of his engines would still run, and if any would need repair. His had been packed away for years, and by that time so had mine. His, and my Mantua, and Varney engines all ran OK. None of the New engines were tried at that time, some still haven't been out of their box yet. That was 1983-4. I retired in 1995, and started in the hobby again with a layout that got too complicated for what I really wanted. I use that layout now as a test track. Gotta go Jan is home, so will continue later.... OK Jan brought some Islandic Cod home! Man that was great stuff! I got out the new Bachmann 4-8-4 to run it. The 4-8-4 has a steel hanger that is connected to the trailing truck by a small coiled spring. That hanger dragged on the crossing rail of a switch! When I backed it up, it hung up solid. Then I noticed the boiler was not level, it was low enough in the rear to catch the tender when going around the switch. There was no mention of how to diss-assemble this engine, so I got the other one out, and found the left piston rod slipped back out of the cylinder chest and fell down on the track, so boxed it back up too. I took the new one to the club and one of the resident geniuses looked it over, took it apart, and pronounced it a factory flaw. That brand new engine went back in its box for a future re-work or scrap since it is way out of warranty by now. Now, your question fits in here, John... While there, the other guys were trying out the new DCC. (That was when the DC-71 motor burnt up). He had replaced the old DC-60 with the DC-71 so it would have the pulling power of mine. My guess is that motor was also one of the older 3 pole straight armature motors, because it ran similar to mine. ..a note here.. We found that most power packs are made so that as you start from zero, the first contact you have, is 3 volts. This makes most engines slow down then suddenly skid to an abrupt stop. I marked that point on the power pack, then wired a volume control to a radio between the power pack and the rails of a siding used as a test track. By turning the volume all the way up and turning the power pack just enough to "start", the engine would jump into motion, but would then slow down some more as I turned the volume down to almost "off". I use this now for coupling since I do not have to "bang" my cars to couple them. ...now back to my story... The DCC guys scoffed at my "discovery", and having hooked up DCC to several other engines, were going to "show up" my junkyard control. One of those engines was the Mantua Pacific with the DC-71 motor, (not a can motor). The diesels ran OK, but the Pacific took some fiddling with to make it run at all. I guess that is the "addressing" required when you use only half throttle, then run it on DCC at the full 12 volts when properly addressed. They ran the Pacific maybe a half hour alone getting it to work correctly, then started hooking up various cars to see how it pulled "better" with DCC than it would on 12v DC. (Really genius guys!) It had pulled the normal 20 passenger cars on DC, but now they wanted to see it creep away from a standing start like a "real" engine would. So each time they would start off and go a few feet, then stop and couple more cars on, and go again. When they got to 8 cars it started taking more fiddling to get it to start, until they finally got 12 cars on it, and started it up again. This time it would nudge forward and hesitate, and they would punch a button or something, and it would nudge a little more, until finally, there was a wisp of smoke, and it failed to move after that. They claimed it should have had traction tires on it to run correctly! How stupid can you get? One of the other big shot types came in with his new Bachmann 4-8-4 that he had paid to have DCC put in, and of course belittled all of us less financially endowed junkyard jockies for not going DCC like all of the "Up and coming" new age collectors were. We "low lifes" all stepped back in reverence to watch of course. He proudly mounted his new engine on the track, and set the Pacific off on the table out of his way... ....(A rule of thumb here- one member of the club was not to touch another member's engine, unless given permission!) Obvious reasons!! Well... The sun was shining in God's Heaven, the birds were singing, and the smart a$$'s new Bachmann, sat right in its tracks and burnt to a cinder! It was one of the most enjoyable times I had ever spent at that club, and I laughed so hard, it was my last day there! That soured me on DCC, smart a$$ rich know-it-alls, and clubs, it was the last straw! I even quit allowing visitors to my own layout, after several visitor's kids did damage, and losing engines from theft and damage. What I have left, I have fought to get and keep, and if I break it, that's me, if someone else breaks it, that's a law suit, if they live! I have heard every promise, to... " NOT touch or let junior touch, just want to SEE your TOY trains", ...that there is. You better believe I am! [ 10 March 2002, 22:32: Message edited by: watash ]
Watash, I take it that the DCC cooked that brand new Bachmann 4-8-4! I knew this before you even said it cooked it! Bachmann Plus, and the Bachmann Silver Series is nasty and then you got real junk plain ole Bachmann. I wouldn't put DCC in it for a lump sum of money! Its just going to cook the motor anyway which would get bad reviews to my name in the hobby (which is one reason I will not put a DCC system in a Bachmann line as I've said. The motors will not handle it! You are very correct on the "How dumb can you be" HA! Man, you can't beat those rich high stepin' smart a$$'s! Gotta love 'em! And for us low lives as we're called, we're the ones that don't ever know anything! But we're the ones that goes to great extents to make sure we don't ruin them! So we go to great extents to make different controls that we know will work by the laws of electronics and actions of different components to get the control we want. But still we do this and the other guys with brains, money, and no mind say and swear by DCC and its control! Which anyone with any electronic background will know that the older 1960's and 1970's and even the 80's knows most of that stuff only had 3 pole motors that were made to be controled with DC cab controll and not DCC of the the 1990's! And honestly, DCC is ok for those who like it and have the conponents to run it and all its fine but those who have older loco's and want to keep them for as long as possible and also original then DC cab control is the only way this keep sake is possible being that DCC has to much load for a 3 pole motor of any kind! I'll stand with ya Watash! I have no intensions of making the switch to DCC. I'll stick to cab control... I like the feel of power under my hand! Just like Casey Jones did. But with my own throttle and not a loco throttle!
John, I'm not totally against any kind of DCC. I'm against the rich smart a$$s belittling me because I don't choose to totally re-work every engine I own just to please their point of view! If I was just starting out and buying new engines today, I might very well go DCC. Even then it would seem rather dumb to have to buy a supposedly "Ready-to-Run" engine, then have to pay more to get working couplers, details it should have come with, and more yet to make it Run on DCC, and more on top of that to have the "Traction tires" removed so I don't burn up the motor if it happens to stall out (because it can't slip its drivers like it is supposed to!) If I was younger (so I had the time left), and was going to totally re-work all my engines, I would go to live steam with remote throttle and reverse control! As it is, I have no problem what so ever with DC, but it is what you have been taught and raised with that makes the difference. Its like I usually tell them as I get ready to resign from another club: "Its just mind over matter, I don't mind, and you don't matter!" (They don't seem to catch on until after I'm gone!) HA! Yep they are sure smart!
Sounds like the DCC Engineers need to stop touting their new toy and design a system that will safely run three pole motors...Something like maybe a couple of capacitors, and then heatsinks, etc., to bring the load down. But then, if we think of this like taking the power variation from the cab control power packs and putting it into the locomotive, well gee yes we will have problems. I remember very well how my old Power pack warmed up whenever I used to play trains for Long 1-2 hour sessions...by the end, that darn thing was hot!!! And I do remember how I had four or five packs, and I would use quite a few of those too...ever time one pack shutdown for whatever reason, I would take it off and put on a different one. Those that shutdown did work after they cooled down, because I am still able to use them ever once in a while when I am using the trains. But the point is, if we are going to put this kind of system onto the locomotive onto a car, we have got to figure a way to disperse that heat. Otherwise, it will burn, melt, and basically destroy everything we put in contact with it. [ 11 March 2002, 08:00: Message edited by: Benny ]
I have a silenium rectifyer power pack that gives 12 volts DC at 15amps, and it has never gotten even warm, and I have run as many as 8 engines all on one train with no problems at all. (That was 4 on the head, two in the middle, and two on the tail, pulling 105 cars). I only use the toy transformers that come with the train sets for lights in houses, street lights etc. I was informed by the Grand Pooba at a club that DCC shoots a full 12 volts at your motor in pulses of short bursts to go slow, and longer to go fast. On DC I have never run at full 12 volts, so have never burned out a motor. As it was presented to us: "If I took a cutting torch and quickly passed it over your hand, it would feel hot, but not burn you too baddly. If I passed a lighted match over your hand at the same speed, you wouldn't even feel it at all. BUT, I could pass the match over your hand many times and still not burn you, where as to pass that torch over your hand many times, your hand would drop off!" That is what is happening to your older 3 pole straight wound armature motor. It was never intended to be torched with a full 12 volts for a very long period of time, especially when not allowed to run free of load in a confined space.
Watash, I could not have said that any better! The explanation of the pulses of DCC compared to DC cab control, with a torch and match involved! And your exactly right. 3 pole motors will cook at a long run seesion of blasts of 12 volts and thats the "load" I was speaking of. I just didn't know how to put it in words! Watash, till this day I got DC cab control. And its from my grandfathers collection. I know its at least 30 years old if not older! Sadly I can't tell you what the make or manufacturer of it is. All the writing on it is worn off and most of the paint! HA! Matter of fact its in a box or casing thats all sheet metal (tin). I have ran it so long 5 to 8 hours straight at a show and it never broke a sweat! But I also have MRC power packs the tech II and it gets warm but not hot. On my older cab I can't tell you what the rating is even! Or the output ampres. I know that it will handle 6 to 8 loco's tho! I have had 9 loco's on it at once already, and its never gotten hot on me.... Also on this cab, I should say that its a double pack. It has 2 controlers (Reostats) on it. Which I use to control my home layouts 2 mainlines. I had all those loco's on only one side of the pack! I could run like 16 loco's at once on 2 different tracks with both reostats. And before you even ask, yes, I have! And thinking of it with older cab controls it doesn't hum or make any noise unless the breaker kicks and I have a short then it will "click" and shut down. 30 seconds later (after I find and get rid of the short) it will "click" again and then it reopens the protector inside to let the current respond. And it doesn't shut the entire pack down either it has seperate overload protectors per side. I love it even tho its old the thing works like million bucks! I'm not really against DCC either I would run it on my new upgraded stuff but none of the older stuff! Its the fact that someone is trying to get rich overnight with it! I'll stick to my $50 cab control that will not harm my loco's and almost last forever! And won't have to worry when it should happen to burn up.. I'd rather pay $50 then $500! And still have fun without the expense!
