Corey, different subject. Does the old B&M/Rutland connection at North Hoosick (or Hoosick Jct.) into North Bennington still exist? A few years ago I read something about Amtrak considering a train from Penn Station up the Hudson and into Vermont. I think the article mentioned a route through North Bennington, but I can't be sure. Gil, I just read your post as I posted my question to Corey. I guess two "Great" minds think alike [ 29 January 2002, 13:54: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
Gil, are you aware of two very good books about the B&M by Robert Willoughby Jones? They are "City and Shore" covering the Eastern Mass lines, North Station, and Boston Engine Terminal; and "Forest, River and Mountain" covering the Fitchburg Division, Conn River Line, NH Mainlines, and NH North Country. I have both books and think that they are very well done. Excellent, mostly color photos, interviews and short write-ups by retired B&M employees concerning issues from the 30's through the 50's ... including a "not-too-complementary" piece about Patrick McGinnis , and a good job of authoring by Jones that logically connects the photos with the lines. (The photos provide excellent reference for painting my engines and cars) Trains magazine has been advertising them for the past year. They are a bit pricey ($70+/- each), but a local library might have them. Pine Tree Press is the publisher. [ 29 January 2002, 14:23: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
Yes, the Hoosic Jct. connection is in service, and has been rebuilt completely for the reroute of the Ethan Allen (the aforementioned Vermont-bound train). All of the trackwork for this train over the B&M has been completed to Bennington. I am unsure as to a startup date, but I can keep you guys posted. Thinking again on my comments from earlier (written at 2am!) you probably came down on a Rutland train, especially if you went over the B&M, since they had trackage rights over the B&M after their Corkscrew Division was abandoned. It then was most likely tacked onto a NYC train, but it probably crossed into Albany to get to the station (which was on the west side) then back to Rensselaer to travel down the east shore (the passenger main). Just theoretical stuff, but this makes more sense to me now that I am awake.
Thanks very much Corey ... now I can think about trusting my memory again By the Rutland's "Corkscrew Division", are you refering to their line from North Bennington, through Bennington, Petersburg Jct (B&M x'ng), Berlin, and into Chatham, where it connected with the Central's Harlem Division. If so, that line was still active in the summer of '53 when I moved from Hoosick. That line carried one steam-powered milk train each way, 7 days a week. Loads southbound in the late-afternoon and empties northbound in the morning. This train was called "The RUT Milk" by the Harlem, which ran it both ways at night to not interfere with their very(!) heavy commuter traffic. I know the Rutland did not carry passenger traffic over that line after WW-II, and probably not for many years before. I believe I read in the book "The Coming of the New York & Harlem Railroad" that any Rutland/Harlem passenger service was dropped in the 20's. The Troy connection for the Rutland was probably much more efficient, and the Harlem ran its through trains to Western New England up to Pittsfield over the B&A. [ 29 January 2002, 15:28: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
I asked for a tranfusion and got it! This is great stuff guys, I love hearing this history and learning about the new stuff. Had no idea about AMTK Hoosick to Vt. I did know they started the "Downeaster" from Boston to Maine, I think, but are speed limited on Guilford track. Keep it going!
What I find strange is that Guilford fought the Downeaster tooth and nail for years and is still being a pain in the butt with their speed restriction on the old B&M trackage from Lowell, MA to Portland, ME. However, based on what Corey has just said, Guilford upgraded trackage for the Ethan Allen between Hoosick Jct and Albany, Rensselaer, or wherever in the Capitol district without so much as a peep. I doubt if Guilford re-installed the 16 mile passenger route from Johnsonville to Troy, especially since the Troy station was razed in '58. Corey, do you know the planned route from the B&M to the NYC? I would love to know what political and financial forces were involved in the two cases and why was one so different from the other? Corey have you heard anything on this subject in your area? [ 30 January 2002, 02:53: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
Fitz, my only concern is that all the interesting stuff between Gil, Corey, you and me is buried within the original "Transfusion" topic. I doubt if it would be seen by a member or guest just browsing looking at topic titles. I'm afraid that they would see "Transfusion" and say to thenselves "Oh yeh, I know where they are going with that topic" and just keep on browsing. Oh well, I guess I can't solve ALL the World's Problems, can I ....
Hank, the way I look at it, if anyone is interested in the New York Central, they will look at all forums. Hmmm, having said that, I see what you mean, since many other roads, both old and new have been mentioned. Maybe I could rename it Northwest rail history or something?
Fitz is correct if you are interested you will read. I have a particular interest in the references to Chatham because of my summers spent there with my grandparents. My grandfather was an engineer on the Harlem and was assigned the Rutland Milk. I remember sitting out on the porch of their house on Hudson Street and watch the train pulling off of the departure tracks and heading south. Because it was it was my grandfather I was allowed to stay up late, about eleven I think. I also remember the military materiel shipments during the Korean War that originated at the GE plant in Schenectady. Flatcars loaded with M4 Shermans and others with canvassed crates. I believe that is where they came from, there was something about GE supplying the drive motors for the turrets. Well, it is past eleven, time for bed. Sorry for getting off topic, this certainly isn't modeling the Central.
Yes, the Rutland line to Chatham was known as the "Corkscrew Division" and it was passenger service I was referring to, as you are right about the milk train. A note about the Downeaster and the recent track upgrades here on the west end of the B&M. Guilford paid absolutely nothing for the upgrading of the track from Plaistow, NH (where the Downeaster comes on their track) to Portland, ME. They have fought it for over 10 years now. Now they have a nice speedy 45 mph freight main that they didn't pay a penny for, and they want Amtrak out, so it doesn't interfere, basically (they think it'll fail at 60 so that Amtrak leaves, but they get to keep the track. So far it has been sold out every day). The upgrades from Mechanicville to Eagle Bridge on the west end were paid for by NYDOT, and from Eagle Bridge to Bennington by VTDOT. So once again, Guilford has a 40 mph freight main at no cost. There will be no speed issue here though, as passenger speed does not really exceed 60 on the current route. I won't get started on Guilford, that's another RR and another forum (not sure which one as of yet, but we can work on it), but I wanted to make clear what was going on.
Hi NYCentral, anything to do with the Central is certainly not off the topic. The book about the Harlem that I mentioned earlier has a few photos of engine crews. What was your Grandfather's name, I'll see if he might be in one of those photos. I believe my Grandfather was the architect for the Chatham station. I remember it as a good looking field stone building when I went through (or changed trains) on my way from Bedford Hills to North Adams.
The new routing of the Ethan Allen from Rensselaer to Vermont will be NYC(CSX) to Schenectady, D&H(CP) to Mechanicville, B&M(ST) to Hoosic Jct, Rut(VRS)to Bennington and eventually Rutland. I have read on other forums that the initial plan includes a train to Bennington and a train to Rutland on the current Whitehall route until the Bennington-Rutland section is upgraded. No firm start date has been mentioned, but target is sometime this year. In times past the bridges between Rensselaer and Albany were at Maiden Lane on the south and Livingston Ave (still there) on the north. I recall track plans that show a wye arrangement on the east side of both bridges but not on the west side. A train from Troy to Harmon would not be able to make a through move so most likely the scenario was an engine change or a coach added from the Hoosic Jct. connection to the NYC train at Troy. I may be wrong about no wye on the west end of the Livingston Ave bridge,but this would be crucial to a run-thru from Troy to Harmon without a back-up move.
I have one of his earlier books titled Boston and Maine, Three colorful decades of New England Railroading that covered the entire RR. My dispatcher friend did some proof reading on the 2 you have but I did not buy them. I did find a 1922 D&H map by Rand McNally. In the tri city area there was an extensive system of electric lines, probably trolleys, owned by D&H and others. They went all the way to Warrensburg via Glens Falls and from Troy east to Averill Park. Also had trolleys at Plattsburg. Correy, would you know what route the planned ATK to Manchester, VT will take. Last I knew there was no connection at XO tower in McVille so perhaps via Schenectady?
The STB over ruled Guilford on the Boston/Portland route and said they can run at 79. Sure glad I left before Guilford took over but I did survive Pat McG. He went to jail before I left.
Welcome, New York Central. I think we all have our memories of the Central. Wish we had a time machine. Big Al, glad to hear from you again. How is the hogger business going and what's happening in Saratoga Springs?
The route will be as Al stated, up to Schectady as normal, then after passing through Mohawk yard, it will continue east on the Freight Main, rather than turn north on the Canadian Main. At CPF 477 in Crescent, NY, it runs on JOINT B&M/D&H trackage until XO tower in Mechanicville (CPF 467) where it splits over to the B&M. The on to Hoosic Jct (CPF 422 I believe) a line swings up to Bennington, where they will make the connection with the VRS. Mechanicville still has the connection, but only in the North (east) direction. Trains can not go to or from Albany off of the B&M without having to make a long reverse move.
I don't suppose any government or private organization would support the re-building of the Rensselaer-Troy-Johnsonville connection. It sure would save AMTK a bunch of miles and time. Corey, you and BigAl keep saying "Bennington" in regard to the upcoming Ethan Allen service. I thought that the line from the B&M at Hoosick Jct came into the Rutland yard at "North Bennington", not "Bennington". I believe that the North Bennington yard had 3 accesses, one west to Hoosick Jct., one north to Rutland, and one south to Bennington via the Corkscrew. I don't remember Bennington having anything more than a station, a team track, and a few industry sidings. Of course I haven't been in that area since 1953, and I have to admit it is very possible that Bennington has annexed the North Bennington area and that the name "North Bennington" has long since ceased to exist.
Hank, In response to your question about my grandfather, his name was Clarence F. Gardner and as far as I know he is not mentioned in the Lou Grogan book on the Harlem Div., at least I have not found it. My uncle, Clarence L. Gardner, also an engineer was acknowledged in the book and was credited for one of the pictures taken in Pawling. My grandfather was responsible for the writing of one of sections of the book due to an incident in which he was involved albeit involuntarily. As I said before he took the Rutland Milk south and the accident at Patterson was his train. I don’t know much about the circumstances prior to the accident or those that followed the accident. I do remember my mother stating the train crew was unaware of the train breaking apart until long past Patterson. The morning after the wreck we, (mother, father and grandmother) went to Patterson to see the damage done to the station. My grandmother is in one of the pictures of the people looking upon the wreck site. When I next talk to my uncle I will try to pull out of him what took place. He has so many stories to tell but is so close mouthed about what he experienced or remembers of other people. He did provide something of his past in an interview for the “Boston & Albany Vol. II” by Robert W. Jones, that was the only time I remember him opening up. Good night gentlemen.
Thanks NYCentral ... that's interesting. What is most interesting is that, just 50 years ago, the head-end crew would not be aware that a train had parted even though I must assume the train line was loosing air pressure very quickly. Today's technology would place both ends in full emergency within seconds of the Glad Hands parting, with the crew scrambling back to their seats after being thrown into the forward bulkheads. I look forward to more of your uncle's memories ... if you can pry any loose.
How did this get here? From the NYCSHS Taylor collection, Buffalo, August 1953. I know it's hard to tell, but S-1b 6003 and J-3a 5445 are doubleheading while TH&B J-1 502 rolls by. Just want to keep the thread going.
