"August 16, 2006 CHICAGO - Union Pacific Railroad has announced that with the recent increase in security concerns across the United States, it will no longer allow photography of trains from Metra station platforms in the Chicago area. Metra is the region's commuter-train agency. "We recognize that railroad fans can be our eyes and ears out there," said UP spokesman Mark Davis. "But we live in different times. The number one concern for Union Pacific is the safety of everyone. Right now, and since 9/11, security has been heightened and increased. This is part of that effort." Davis added that, "This stuff about UP not liking railfans is not true. But we have to be as safe and secure as we can." Metra was pulled into the photography-rights controversy last year when two railroad fans were detained by Morton Grove, Ill., municipal police and Metra police while photographing trains from the public train-boarding platforms at town's Metra station. That route, the Milwaukee District North Line, is owned by Metra. Union Pacific owns the property on its three commuter routes, and UP employees operate the trains under contract to Metra. After the glare of publicity enveloped the Motron Grove incident, Metra recanted its position and publicly reversed its stance, saying it would allow photography of trains from its stations. Metra spokesman Tom Miller today told Trains News Wire that as long as people are in areas accessible to the public, are acting in a safe manner, and are willing to provide identification if asked by authorities, that Metra has no problem with them taking photos. "But as far as the UP policy, we have no comment on that," Miller said. UP might be on shaky legal ground if it attempts to enforce its ban. Attorney Walter Zullig, who did legal work for New York's Metro North Commuter Railroad, today told Trains News Wire, "There is nothing in statute that prohibits photography from public areas. There is no federal law on this, and nothing from Homeland Security. The U.S. Supreme Court considers photography a part of free speech protected under the First Amendment." In a column that will appear in the October 2006 issue of TRAINS Magazine, Zullig writes that research has not turned up any state law on the subject in existence anywhere. According to Zullig, railfans have the legal and constitutional right to photograph whatever they please from locations "open to the public," which would seem to include Metra and other passenger-train-boarding platforms. Maryland's MTA rapid-transit and commuter-train system has a photo ban on MARC commuter trains, which run on CSX and Amtrak trackage, as well as the Baltimore subway and light-rail systems, but Zullig believes there is no legal basis for the ban and is attempting to get MTA to explain its legal basis for it. Both the New York City Transit Agency, which operates the city's vast subway system, and New Jersey Transit, which operates commuter trains and bus and trolley lines throughout the Garden State, attempted to adopt photography bans but withdrew their proposals after a flood of negative comments and threatened lawuits on constitutional grounds. Public financial support of transit and commuter facilities may or may not have any bearing on the legality of such bans. In the Union Pacific instance, UP, a private railroad, contracts with Metra, a public entity, to provide the commuter-train service, on three routes out of Chicago. Metra uses tax money to fund the service and maintain the station facilities, including the train-boarding platforms." end quoted material. In other news, the SP Heritage loco is going to be unveiled at Roseville this Saturday. The event is supposedly only open to UP employees and their families. The locomotive arrived in Roseville under tarps yesterday. One UP employee stated that security around the unit is tighter than airport security. The CRSM SP Daylight E unit is also up at Roseville for the ceremony.
Photography ban If a terrorist wants to attack the rail network he does not need to stand at a platform end to photograph the trains. What are UP going to do? Outlaw cameras anywhere near their tracks? And just how are they planning to enforce that? It reads to me as if the United States is becoming as totalitarian as the Dreaded Reds of the communist bloc during the cold war. And anyway who's in charge over there, Uncle Pete or Uncle Sam? It looks like the terrorists have already won if the free world is descending into such paranoia.
The sky is NOT falling. Pasenger platforms are some of the worst locations to shoot trains. Too tight an angle to get decent shots of trains in action. Great for detail shots if the train is not moving but otherwise actually not a good location. A horrendous location to take video. Too many people that don't understand or care that the film may be running as the train approaches and as it departs. Babies crying, horns honking, incessant chatter. I'll take the wide open spaces of the NM plains and mountains any day instead.
Let us hope what Mr.Zullig states, comes true. It seems to me that enough past instances have been overturned, there ought to be precedent for quickly getting this tossed out. What they're attempting, shows me a definitive lack of leadership. Nobody of ill will, needs a camera with them, to plan or do something stupid. This attempted ban won't slow any trouble maker a single second. They need to spend their efforts on running a railroad. Which this is not! :thumbs_down: Boxcab E50
Yea right... If someone's is planing to take a photograph for "Evil" reasons they will get it no matter what UP thinks so why piss off those that can help prevent problems by bing there for all the right reasons.
I guess I have mixed emotions about this. Having grown up in Boulder Colorado in the 1960s and 1970s I think you can imagine where my politics are. BUT we DO INDEED live in a different world these days and I can't blame anyone for being a bit "gun shy" as it appears UP is. I also agree that platforms are horrible for photography. There can be no law enforced if you shoot trains along the ROW if you are not on UP property IMO. John
I agree with you, but, what about all the young railfans who may not have access to any other places to start pursuing that hobby. Growing up in a small town (in the middle of nowhere) I had the ability to go to just about anywhere in town and do as I pleased to pursue my newfound hobby. These people in a big city may very well not have this option, the platform maybe the only place they have access to.
Sorry Robyn, this came from another source and I don't have any links. From what I understand, UP can't do anything if you are in a public place. Metra and others already seems to understand that now. It is perfectly legal to take photos from public property and that includes images of power plants and industrial sites as well. There has been an argument about privacy and trade secrets as well being exposed by photographers and if I recall correctly it was ruled that to have any expected privacy, the company must keep any and all things they do not want photographed out of sight from the public or they cannot expect privacy. What about all those thousands of people who ride the train on vacation and are taking some home video or family photos to remember their trip?? They don't seem to get bothered. Gosh if I was a terrorist, the things I could come up with. All I have to do is watch the news to find out weak spots in security of such places as rail yards and ports and the olympics then go blow something up. Sorry but I feel like I have more of a chance getting killed by accident falling down my apartment stairs than I do by some dumb terrorist! I have absolutely no fear of attack but thats what they want and are getting. Geez, railfanning in Stockton,CA is more scarry than terrorists!!! In another thread I was told it may soon be "illegal" to identify equipment such as locomotives by numbers. Does this mean all of us roster keepers are outlaws too?! How does knowing what number series UPs SD70Ms carry help a terrorist????? What the?!?!? What paranoid sociopath thinks these things up????? This is just getting way outa hand!! I don't want to see this thread turned into a political discussion but wanted to post a heads up on whats goin on out there. :thumbs_down: :thumbs_down: :thumbs_down:
See, here's more garbage... KCRA 3 Investigates: Lawmakers Consider Rail Security Bills Serious Security Lapses Exposed By KCRA 3 Investigation SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- State lawmakers are expected to decide on Thursday whether two bills aimed at increasing security along the rail system will make it to a vote. In May, a KCRA 3 investigation exposed serious security lapses at Northern California rail yards. Now, lawmakers are hoping that investigation will help close security gaps. There are no metal detectors or bomb-sniffing dogs. There is nothing stopping someone from slapping a bomb on a train and running it right through downtown Sacramento. KCRA 3's investigation exposed little to no security at the Roseville rail yard -- the largest rail yard west of the Mississippi. Trains loaded with hazardous materials sit unsecured for hours at a time. State Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, said KCRA's investigation helped expose one of the greatest threats to homeland security. So Simitian, along with other lawmakers, is demanding change. Simitian has introduced a bill that would require dangerous chemicals, such as chlorine gas, to be hauled in more secure tanks. He wants to increase accountability for the industry and require hazardous materials and the companies hauling them to be tracked by the state. "If it's flammable, if it's explosive, if it's poisonous, then let's put it in the most up-to-date technology and provide the greatest degree of safety," Simitian said. Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez is also calling for increased security. He's introduced a bill that would force the industry to submit threat assessments and security plans to local authorities. "The railroad industry has turned its back on railroad safety in a way that is unbelievable," Nunez said. Both bills are facing strong resistance. Last year, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed a bill that was overwhelmingly supported by lawmakers. That bill would have required simple measures, such as increased signage and notification of any accidents. "Well, I just didn't believe in it. It was the way it was written," Schwarzenegger said. Just before he killed the bill, the governor accepted tens of thousands of dollars in contributions. In all, the rail industry pumped more than $65,000 into the governor's campaign within a matter of weeks. "Our responsibility is protect the public and the safety of our communities, not to protect the safety of the railroad industry and their profit margin," Nunez said. Simitian's bill, along with an amended version of Nunez's legislation, has a little more than two weeks left before the legislative session comes to an end.
Darren...Point Taken Guess I should have said that for some of us platforms are horrible for photography John
I really wouldn't fear people taking pictures of feight trains at a passenger station. I also wouldn't fear people taking pictures of the passenger trains. These pics would have minimal tactical value to terrorist. I would be more concerned about people taking pictures of the platforms or exits or stairwells, ect. The best place for a terrorist to get info on a passenger train would be the schedules that are post at the staion. "Gee, the train is going to be where - when." That's the best info they could have. And I'm not giving the bad guys any ideas - they already know this stuff as London and Madrid are evidence of that. Eric
Many schedules are on the 'Net. Such as Amtrak. So we don't even need to look beyond our keyboards. The true damage here, is what this does to our personal lives. That's the real loss. :sad: Boxcab E50
Well, having ridden the BNSF West and UP North lines for several years, I can tell you that south of Wilmette the UPN/METRA is all elevated above grade and you would have to be on a platform to really see the trains well. But, as I understand it, the only freight that regularly runs there is the PRNA something with newsprint, etc for the "Tribune" plant. And that one runs at night. No Amtrak on that line, so unless you really like METRA, there's really little to be seen. The BNSF is predominantly at grade all the way from Aurora to Clyde Yard in Cicero with the tracks clearly visible from most locations - parking lots, streets, parks, etc. The UP West line through Elmhurst to Elburn is also largely at grade and visible for most of its length from a lot of public places. So it seems that this UP thing is no big deal from a practical viewpoint for the most part. But it could be a good test of constitutional law perhaps.
What if you are across the street with a telephoto lens? Will the NSA come get you? If platforms are the issue, move across town to where you have a clear shot at the line from a public place. Of course Darren's shot IS pretty sweet... John
bnsf_mp_30, Thanks for the info. I must confess that even after living my whole life just 100 miles straight S. of Chicago I have not spent all that much time in the city(occasional Cubs &Sox games, and trips to O'Hare excluded). so was not really aware of the situation on the Metra lines, just playing Devils advocate , if you will. Thanks for setting me straight
Thursday I was passing through Palestine, TX along US84 and spotted a headlight just coming through the yard. Pulled over to the side of the road, got the shot by leaning against the car (stayed WELL off of UP property, waved at the crew).... nice shot, deep afternoon lighting, very nice composition actually. One of my better UP grab shots. And before I could make it back to the other side of the car a UP signal truck pulled up behind me. I was already getting in the car, decided taking off like a rabbit was a bad idea. After he saw I was OBVIOUSLY a railfan and OBVIOUSLY on public property, he just nodded and waved me on. Not really hassled, but man, the word is out to keep an eye on everybody. Stay off the property, stay safe, understand that everybody on the Class 1's is now REALLY jumpy with what's going on, carry ID and a TRAINS magazine or two wouldn't hurt. But even when you're clearly on public property, don't be shocked if you get questioned and be prepared to explain yourself.
(inserf obscene word here) UP and their (another obscene word) suits! I disagree about platform shots overall- when I lived in Kansas in the 1980s, I made a railfan trip to Emporia and got quite a few shots of Santa Fe power at the Emporia depot. It depends on the depot, platform, whether or not you have passenger trains, etc. But true, it IS easier to get shots in the great wide open, as I was able to do on the Gallup Sub and LawyerRail-oops, I meant UP's- Sherman Hill. Apparently the suits in Omahaha, having done the fee-extortion and so-called "trademark protection" paint schemes (do NOT get me started on that!!! ), have decieded to screw over Joe Average, the Metra debacle be damned. If they win that battle, watch for the dominos to fall. Hate to tell them this, but were I a member of some extremist organization and wished to either strike a blow against the US Gummint or just stick it to the Man, I could just as easily do so in the wide open spaces as I could on a crowded station platform. And my politics are right of center, and I STILL think UP is gonna be way off base here! How does UP think they can tamper with the Bill of Rights? That one I'd like to see......... Like it was said earlier, gang, be careful where you're shooting- I'm close to NS property, and they hate trespassers with a passion! I shoot on public property, and wave to the train crews when I'm done. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints- that's the old Boy Scout motto.
