What qualities do you look for when you shop at a hobby store? Is it price alone, or service, or knowledgeable staff, or or something else I haven't yet thought of? I'm asking this question because it seems that so many members of this forum, when asked where to purchase trains, mention mail order and interenet sites that discount, sometimes drastically below MSRP. Very seldom is your local hobby store even mentioned. Yet, as a hobby store owner in a very small market (~3500 people) I am unable to compete on price alone, simply because my volume doesn't allow a living-wage profit. I'm sure many hobby store owners, even in cities much larger than Petersburg, AK, are having the same problem. I'm not necessarily complaining, but this situation begs another question. Do we have a dearth of quality hobby stores in this country? Do we really want the type of store where we can enter and always feel welcome, where anything we could possibly want is always on the shelf (except for that SP&S C636 ), and the reasonable prices allow us to leave without mortgaging our children? And if this is so, what can we do about it? If we're going to force hobby stores to compete on price alone, then one day we'll be left with a few stores in the larger cities, because the smaller stores will have closed due to lack of wage-earning income. Is this what we really want for the hobby? I realize this is a loaded topic. GOOD! Maybe it will not only make you, as a hobbyist, think, it will also make the hobby store owner think about improving his/her service to the public. Pat
Little Choo Choo Shop in Spencer, NC is my favorite. Why? Price: Most items are fairly well under Walthers list, and often close to what online retailers sell for. Service: Anytime I've had a problem with something, it was handled promptly and efficiently, with no undue stress for me. Selection: HUGE selection of Micro-Trains cars, MUCH more detail parts and just general bits and pieces than most hobby shops. Most other shops around here have a few locos, some cars, and a two foot section of parts. Not the case here. Convenience: I don't have to wait for UPS or USPS, I just drive 20 min across the river into the next town, and I'm there. I don't like waiting. If I'm out of couplers for something, I want to go get em and finish my project the same day. I can't do that if I have to order the parts from somewhere. All these factors combined is why I've not bothered to buy trains online, except occasional discontinued/cheap items from eBay. I recently got a mail order flyer with a cheaper price on Mikados than the local hobby shop, so I may break from my routine and buy a Mike or two that way. However, I very much prefer to buy my model railroad stuff in a brick & mortar store, that way I can see it in person beforehand, can test run it, and have someone whom I can talk to if I have a problem. (I have no association with LCCS except as a happy customer)
I have 3 shops to choose from. 1 is Hobby Recyling owned by a friend with good prices and service to everybody. 2 is Rider's hobby shop,this is where I buy all of my supplies from because HR doesn't carry styrene and glue and such.The service is quite good ,the people there are friendly. 3 is one I won't name because thier service is lousy .If your into RC they are the place to be,but if your a model rail don't bother,cause they are everything a shop shouldn't be.
I make most of my purchases at a hobby store 10 minutes from my workplace. The only items I buy mail order are locomotives, where the shops prices are really high. I still buy a loco or two a year from the local store. Mostly I go there for styrene, glue, paint and such, always pick up a freight car or two and a vehicle while there. The owner of the store I go to is not the friendliest guy around, although he is ok once he gets to know you. He's not terrribly anxious to order things, he'll do so doesn't give you the feeling that he gives a damn. I would think this hurts his business, but the stock of detail parts and such is very good. There is another shop 45 minutes away which I visit several times a year, I just like to see the products. This owner knows me by name after my first visit, and I come back 3 months later! I only go back because I like him. Selection not quite as good but has different items such as loose rail for handlaying. In short I prefer to buy from hobby stores as I want to be able to see what I'm buying. If the stores go, I'd have to rely on photos. I don't mind paying a little more for this convienience. Gary
Bruce's Train Shop in Sacramento. It is about 45 miles away from where I live. It is a large store and have a huge inventory. Prices vary from list to about 20% off. Only complaint is trying to get somebody to help you. I have gone in several times when 3 or 4 clerks will be at the front register gossiping. I walk right past them and not a one will break away to help me unless I interupt their conversations and ask for help. There are a couple of other stores in downtown Sacramento but I hate to fight the traffic on one way streets. They are not a large as Bruce's Train Shop.
I would like to give a huge plug for my favourite Train Store. It's called Hemlock Junction Railroad and is located in Milton Ontario The couple that own and run it do a fantastic job of keeping prices as low as possible when you consider the low value of the Canadian Dollar and that most of what they sell has to be imported as there aren't many Canadian manufactures that make model railroad stuff. They give excellent knowledgable service too. They tell me their business is growing almost faster than they can handle which is great to hear in these days of retail difficulties. I stopped using mail order years ago as even if a price was right, the handling and shipping costs made it far too expensive. Now there are many other good model railroad stores in this area of Ontario but Hemlock Junction stands up from the crowd. [ 17 May 2002, 21:15: Message edited by: Robin Matthysen ]
The main thing I look for now is price. I no longer go to the local hobby store. I just can't face paying $125 for a locomotive, $4.00 for a bottle of paint, etc plus sales tax on top of that. Also, I have yet to find a store that has everything I need when I need it. It is impossible for a store to stock everything that everyone wants. You would have to have a store the size of Walthers' warehouse. So what happens? The shop orders it for you. I don't need a shop to order for me. I am fully capable of ordering what I need myself. That way it comes right to my home and I save at least 20% off retail list. Not having to pay sales tax pays for the shipping and depending upon who I order from and how large my order is, I may not even have to pay shipping. I personally don't need a shop owner to talk to. Others may need this hand holding. They can pay for it if they want but I can do about 30% more modeling for my dollar by ordering for myself. [ 18 May 2002, 15:48: Message edited by: ncng ]
The biggest reason I don't use local hobby shops more is that there AREN"T ANY. My closest hobby shop is 1 hour and 45 minutes away (one way). Therefore, I get most of my stuff off Ebay and a little mail order. I do however drive to the "local" hobby shop once a month or so to get the misc. stuff I can't get online. As far as local shops.....I visit them whenever I can. As an example, I took a weekend trip to Dallas. I found out where the shops were and visited as many as I could. I try to buy something at each shop. Months later when I'm running my trains, I can remember "I bought that Engine in Miami or wherever....
With regard to trains-only hobby shops, I can only look for service and knowledgable staff. Unfortunately, price isn't going to be the big attraction at the bricks and mortar store as mentioned already. I mostly shop at Rio Grande Hobbies' Internet store (4nscale.com) for most items and at Reed's Trains (all scales - just trains) in San Diego for less expensive supplies & incidentals. I get great service and knowledgable staff at both but price only on the Internet. I wonder if, in the very near future, the only way trains-only hobby shops can make a living is to have both a retail store and an Internet site so they can order in volume and sell at the typical 20-30% off retail. Mike Cannone San Diego, CA
I buy about 60-70% of my stuff online, spending about $200 average per order. I paid about $700 at my local pusher for my DCC system because he had all the major brands in stock and let me play with them for 2 HOURS to decide what I wanted, but I could have bought online and saved $250-300. That was because it was there for instant gratification...after all I had to drive through 45 minutes of misery to get there. Where I live costs me about 45 to 60 minutes to get 20 miles to a hobby shop, so when I do go I end up spending $100-400 to get out the door mainly cause I don't want to drive back again. The shop to the south of me sells most stuff for the same discount price as mail order, and the one to the north sells at a lesser discount, but has a complete DCC lineup with NCE, Digitrax, Lenz, Wangrow and others. I guess I am lucky to have shops available, but I'll still shop online so I don't have to drive in traffic.
I cannot quite answer in a simple fashion. It's more than just the commute of 2&1/2 hours one way for me to the nearest full price, inventory-inadequate shop. It's the parking, appearance of the store, staff, etc. If a shop does not have what I need, waiting 2-4 weeks for them to get it to me at full price, versus e-mail order in a week at a substantial discount? It's obvious what my choice will be. I am not saying that the shop should stock everything that a modelers heart might desire. Just commenting on the potential time saved of weeks. Otherwise, my projects sits, and gathers dust. That is no fun at all. When I lived elsewhere, I could drive through ever worsening traffic, and did so, often, to get to the brick and mortar places that treated me as though my presence was desired. If a shop did otherwise, I never returned. My time has value! Shops that I entered, which had the common crafts, plastic models, R/C, etc., and a very few trains stuffed in a corner.... Well, I didn't go back. A few Tyco, Bachmann, Model Power, etc., warehouse line pieces that have been sitting there forever are meaningless. I've always wondered why they'd waste their time, and ours, pretending to have some interest in the model RR business/customers at all? A well stocked shop, which there were several in the greater Seattle area when I lived there, got my business. Not just from the instant gratification. But the experience of going made it a fun day. (Excepting the miserable commute!) Somewhat similar to a picnic outing. At least it seemed that way to me! Shop owners have a right to charge full price. They have bills to pay. A living to make. But there is no guarantee that they will succeed. My budget is finite. AFTER I pay all of MY bills, Mr. Shop Owner, I have a very limited discretionary amount left over. Which I have every right to stretch as far as I can make it go. So, shopping at a mail order discounter is a valuable, viable alternative. Store owners need to see the customer side of the equation, too! A friendly brick and mortar shop that gives me a little break and helps fill my needs, will usually get many return visits from me. The social interaction is of as great a value as are as the models. Well, I'm rambling all over the place..... Oh. I forgot to mention that I do have experience in the business! BoxcabE50 Model railroading since 1955. N scale since 1972. [ 18 May 2002, 20:24: Message edited by: BoxcabE50 ]
1.) Grandad's Hobbies in Alexandria-Springfield, Va. Excellent stock on HO, N, O. TONS of scratch building and kitbashing supplies.... good stuff too. 2.) woo woo woo Kleins in Baltimore. Same kinda store as above except w/ more brass. The mark of a good hobby store is when I walk in there is plenty of HO stuff, neat little kits, tons of supplies, paint, glues, and whatever. Closer to home we have a Riders Hobby, but thier stock on model railroading stuff is pretty poor. A good model railroading hobby store should have plenty of stock when I walk in the door. When I want to buy something, I want it THEN. I detest going in, looking for something, and the dealer says.... "Hey... we dont carry it.. but I can get it from Walthers." Heck... I CAN GET FROM Walthers. Show me a store w/ good stock, and I will show you "moi" cracking the wallet right there on the spot. -Kitbash
Well Pat, Reading that lot it looks like like a combination of price and convenience of mail order is the main driver, and I'd have to go with that for myself. I realise that shops have bills to pay, but maybe if they flexed their pricing a bit, they could up their turnover and profit. If a shop marks up 100% (50% profit) as standard, then why not give a discount for bulk buyers? Wouldn't it be better to sell $1000 'worth' of stuff for, say, $800 (and only make 30% profit) than sell a pot of paint for $5 and the customer then leaves to look elsewhere for his big purchase. OK, I'm being simplistic . But I am also a consumer . Incidentally, you mentioned You should note that this bunch of internet savvy train-freaks probably doesn't represent the average train modeller (for the UK that is 'definitely') and I would expect a higher proportion of 'distance shoppers' in here.
Back when I belonged to the local N trak club in Austin, we went to the local hobby shops to see about a discount on all our Micro Trains rolling stock, and any Kato or Atlas engines that would be brought out in their limited runs, we asked about a club discount regarding these items on a monthly basis, at least for the Micro Trains, niether of our local dealers were interested, so when the club members ordered their Kato F3's, over 50 of them in one shot, TexNRails got the order, when Kato brought out the F7's, again, TexNRails got the order for over 70 of those, every month we got out Micro Trains release pamphlet, every month TexNRails got the order for what everyone was ordering............. I live in Florida now, and have gone back to 2 rail O scale, (thats true 1/4" scale, not to be confused with Lionel, MTH etc.), since most hobby shops won't, and I do mean won't carry 2 rail O scale items, then I mail order, when the local hobby dealers all tell me that they can't get 2 rail O scale anymore, (Gee, I don't have any problem getting it, I'm not even a dealer.), when I do make it to Tampa occasionally, I go to Chester Hollies, that is until the woman running the place tried to charge me for each piece of styrene that comes in a package of Evergreen sheet styrene, never mind it came in 3 different thicknesses, after informing her that it wasn't Plastruct, she finally relented and I got my styrene, but I haven't been back, mail order, at least I get what I order and don't have to deal with Tampa traffic............
I can't speak for hobby store owner in Great Britain, but most store owners over here would LOVE to make a 50% profit on their sales! Our standard profit is somewhat lower than that, before we start discounting. As for my store in Alaska, my higher shipping costs almost prohibit discounting, particularly to match the generous discounts offered by some of the largest hobby stores. I understand what each of you are saying, and I hope other hobby store owners are reading this to get input from a segment of their customer base. Mind you, I'm my own worst customer! If I didn't have my own store (which will happen pretty quickly!) I probably would purchase from a store only once every couple of months or so. I know a limited budget! When I'm visiting down south, my favorite store is Whistle Stop Trains in Portland, OR. Charlie has an excellent inventory of trains in all scales, and always goes out of his way to stop and visit (of course, we only stop in about once a year or so). He always takes time to talk to my kids, and lets them drag him around his store, asking questions. I have yet to visit any other store where my family has felt so welcome. The replies so far have given something to think about. And that's good. Thank you very much! Pat
I'm lucky to have 2 hobby shops 10" from my house and 3 more about 45" away. Neither of the 2 close ones deal much in "G" but one of the 45" away one does. I buy all my HO stuff from the local hobby shop even though his prices are NOT discounted one cent, but he is friendly & willing to order stuff that he might not ordinarily stock and doesw carry a good supply of HO and services what HE sells. My "G" scale stuff is split about 70-30, the higher % from the hobby shop 45" away near Toledo, Ohio (I live outside Detroit, Mi) and about 30% from Trainworld- some of their deals cannot be passed up!
Are you talking here about local customers or supplying mail order outside Alaska? To be fair your local customers would have to pay a similar shipping cost if they buy from a distant discount store, which effectively evens the score a bit. But I do realise that some people don't account these things properly - it's like thinking the cost of running a car is just what they pay at the pump! You need to educate your customers - maybe do a handout illustrating the real costs, with allowance for some of the inevitable returns they'll hit . That said, I get teed off by some UK traders who complain vociferously that people buy from abroad without taking the carriage and duties into account. One of these advertises the Walthers Blast Furnace for over £130. I bought it from a US supplier and it came to £100 - including carriage, duty and tax . On the other hand, I bought two 6-axle diesels (one Athearn, one Atlas, total cost about £100) from that same UK store because the 'real' price was little different from what it would have cost to have them sent from a US discount store . Can someone explain that mathematical absurdity to me? Sorry, that's one of my soapbox subjects. I'll step down now . [ 20 May 2002, 22:48: Message edited by: Mike Sheridan ]
I've been to half a dozen hobbyshops within an hours drive of my house recently, only one had what I would call "decent" selection of N scale stuff... Selection is as important as price to me... When I want to buy a house model for my RR, I want to have a bunch to choose from. Most hobby shops I've found have between 5 and 15 different N scale models of buildings... if I go online, I can pick from hundreds and have a much better chance of getting exactly what I want. Now, sure some hobby shops might order it, but if i've already found it online, why would I drive an hour to hobby shop and have them order it, when I could click a few buttons and have it delivered to my home 2-3 days later? I LIKE going to a shop that has a bunch of woo woo woo, I love to browse it and pick through stuff, but unfortunately I have yet to find a local store that has a good selection of N scale stuff. I recently started a new layout, decided to try Peco code 55 rail for it, went to the ONE hobby store that has the most N scale, and the guy there said "I don't stock it, I can order it but its really hard to get, can't say how long it will take..." I go home, look online and boom there it is... a full Peco lineup, all available to ship.
There are two hobby shops I visit. One is in Seattle and I stop in there whenever I'm down that way, but just for the company. Wanda is wonderful and I throughly enjoy our visits, but they're selection turns over very slowly and they charge full retail, so I almost never buy anything there. To quote the wise Ferengui, "Only fools pay retail". The other shop is closer to me, but still an hours drive and I go for much the same reason. I buy my paint at a few other things at M&M Depot in Ferndale, but again, the inventory almost never changes and I already have almost everything Gene carries that I need. Gene does give a 10% discount to club members, but that barely offsets the 7.9% sales tax. The other reason I go to M&M is that he will work on brass locos, as long as you don't need the work done in less than 6 months. The basic reason I don't use hobby shops much is price and selection. Everything I could ever want comes up on eBay, and usually at a good price if I'm patient enough. I not infrequently pick up Proto locomotives for less than $30 and sometimes less than $20, in good shape. Same with cars, freight and passenger. This is particularly important because I do a lot of custom work and so often it doesn't matter what road name the car is since I'm just going to repaint it anyway. One area where I feel shops have the potential to do well is parts. These tend to be very hard to find on eBay and usually they're cheap enough that I don't mind paying retail on them. Case in point, I currently need an end railing for an Athearn heavyweight observation to finish up a project. Stuff this small almost never comes up on eBay, Walthers doesn't have it in stock, and none of the shops have it. It's one of those maddeningly small parts that no one has at any price. I may end up having to spend $8-$10 for a complete obs car just to get that Freakin railing.
Both! UPS Ground service is not availble in Alaska, so my choices are UPS Blue (very expensive ), Priority Mail (fairly spendy for medium-to-large packages) or barging from Seattle (again, fairly expensive, though mostly for small orders). Also, all paints, glues, rocket engines and R/C fuel has to be barged, with a minimum freight charge of $24. That's per order received, not per shipment to me. If they receive two different shipments for me, I get billed for each. If an order gets split by UPS, and one makes the barge and the other misses, I get billed twice ( I've had this happen!). To ship out, Priority Mail is my only option. UPS tacks on a surcharge to ship from SE Alaska, and the barge company won't deliver to UPS for me. To be fair, most of my customers up here understand why I don't meet mail-order/Internet prices; and I will discount if I find a good buy at one of my distributors. We've always offered free shipping for purchases over $100, except for Lionel and large scale sets, and I've had a couple customers take me up on that. If you think model railroad discounters are bad for hobby stores, you should try R/C prices! It's almost impossible to sell R/C cars unless you're willing to settle for only a 15% markup. Ouch!! Pat
