Z Scale Controller and HF 'Cleaning'

Happy New Year from New Zealand.

With the new year I have newly decided to refresh my 'vintage' Marklin Z gauge layout.

I have all old rolling stock, much from the 70's.

To start with I have decided to upgrade to 5 pole motors.

Next I would like to replace the original Marklin controllers (which still work well) with a more modern electronic control system.

Some existing layout information:
Used for occasional railroading - usually for the grandchildren.
Old school Analogue - no plans to go digital.
The layout uses a vintage Marklin Toporama 8930 layout mat.
There is dual train control with one controller each for inside and outside loops, which are electrically isolated from each other.
All points (turnouts) are controlled from a control panel with 2 way momentary switches.
Decouplers are also controlled with momentary switches while power to sidings can be turned off or on to avoid locos parked up from moving.
Lighting is separated to street lamp and building circuits.

I have been adding buildings over the years as I see them come up on auction sites - much cheaper than paying Marklin full price! Still 2 houses to go so I may fit other buildings on the sites.



Proposed changes:

• Remain 'old school' analogue
• no change to the turnouts/lighting control

• 5 pole motors

• replace controllers with 2 x Medvend AN-1/SAC Panel Mount Blue Line Snail Speed Controllers (to install in a new panel below the switches).
• install a Gaugemaster HF 'track cleaner'

QUESTIONS - ADVICE Sought

Any comments on the choice on my choice of controllers , how good are they? any issues running with Marklin Z? other recommendations?
Any experience with running the HF track cleaner with these controllers?

Many thanks in advance

Adrian Whiteman

(Much larger N scale DCC refurbishment to follow)

 

I use gaugemasters and jorger deluxe controllers and gaugemasters with snail speed controllers with great results for 20 years now with all locos marklin MT and AZL. I think if you’re not going DCC it’s the way to go.

 

My understanding is that "cleaner" is a misnomer as it doesn't really clean the track at all. Rather it boosts the voltage to compensate for non-conductive, weak spots and, as far as DC power is concerned, I've had good luck -> with this PWM <- between the transformer & the track.

 

Hi Michael, do you use this PWM with Marklin locomotives only? Instructions on the ebay add your linked say:
"Please Note PWM DC Motor controller does not work with brushless motor"...

Matt

 

Matt, good question I have two of these "dcc ready locos" and assume they are 'brushless' but PWM seems to work just fine would the "5-pole skew-wound motor" actually be AC driven? Reason I say this is even when physically turn loco around, with same track polarity, it still goes in the same direction . .

Also would you know which ESU decoder it's "21-Pin DCC plug" would be compatible with?

(SORRY if change of subject!)

 

You may want to keep one of those older Blue Marklin power packs to power the turnouts/lights. That or get one of the newer White Marklin power supplies.
Make sure to get a separate 16v AC wall adaptor to power the Gaugemaster HF track cleaner itself.
Some of the 5 pole motors are no longer made and can be hard to get. Upgrading to a "Can Motor" might be a better option for some Loco's.

 

I'm not sure I would gamble using that with my Z scale Loco's Saving a few dollars by using that could cost you considerably more in the long run if it fry's a motor. Replacement motors are not cheap, And that is if you can find one. (note my comment in the post above Some 3 and 5 pole motors are no longer available)

That is a HO scale Loco you linked to. You would be better of asking that question on the HO scale forum or maybe the DCC & Electronics forum.

 

Adrian,
Nice little layout and setup.
Thanks for sharing.
I have a bunch of 5 pole motors, let me know what number motors you need and I'll see if I have them.
You can start a conversation if you prefer.

Scott

 

Many thanks guys, you have been very helpful so quickly, I am very glad to get your advice first.

My conclusion is to change as many 5 poles as I can (I will PM you Scott), go ahead with a Medvend order and add a gaugemaster HF next.
I think keeping one Marklin control unit will free up enough room for the medved panel while providing power to accessories and look 'cool old school'.
I could actually wire that controller to the sidings too, will have to see about that. I will add a separate HF power supply as recommended.

Could be a few months until the process bites, but I will update you on the progress,

Thanks all again

Adrian

 

you drop $40/$50 EACH into an old school 5 pole motor. after which and after using you still gots to clean brush crud from the gaps in the rotor, only now there are five even smaller gaps that your safety pin tip is too large for, so need to start using a very thin needle, and the brush blocks themselves for the 5 pole are smaller than the brush blocks on old 3 pole brushes so the brushes wear faster....and for what, better slow speed control? you have solved that creep desireable feature with the snail speed controller(s) (see the snail speed controller video on AZL website). So it is overkill to do both 5 pole swaps AND snail speed. old 3 pole motors got more torque too.

or you buy (until Friday jan 6), 4 axle American GP 7/9 locomotives with maintenance free forever can motors, their four axel trucks will easily traverse your layout, and you do this for the princely sum of.....$84.50 ea! (bought in the AZL bogo 2 fer $169.) you make a mtl transition car, mtl marklin spear truck on one end of the mtl boxcar and mtl knuckle coupler truck on the other end, and bob's you uncle, you can pull all the heidiland marklin cars you own with just one AZL gP7/9, maintenance free, creep as slow as you like, forever. mtl marklin-spears trucks are purchased at zscalemonster.com.

$50 for one five pole motor, self-installed into one worn geartrain and brassed-used wheels of one shopworn loc; or a brand new in box American prototype diesel RTR, as modern as tommorrow, for $84.50. Don't be like the guy on the assembly line in heaven, when the announcement was made 'this line for new brains,' but he thought he heard 'trains' and said to himself; 'i don't need no new trains!' so he stepped out of the brains assembly line.

 

I’m with Sumgai. Overkill. First on the list is the Gauge Master. Sure most say it ‘makes it better’ is that it very high frequency ~400 volts AC to the track [Note: extreme low power] each time there is a ‘loss of current’ from the main DC. These ‘arcs’ in transitions cause micro-pitting (you need a simple Lupe or low-power microscope).

The difference in running with DC (0-10 volts) and a PWM (pulse-with-modulation) is night and day. Since any time the ‘pulse’ is ‘on’ it puts 9-10 volts, then ‘off’, repeatedly. For the Medven (Snail) is ~200 Hertz. This is EXACTLY the way your $5 LED dimmer works.

Lets say there are 100 ‘Speed Steps’ (DCC uses 128 but 100 is easier to use in this explanation).
At Speed Step ‘1’, a 10 volt ‘on’ hits the motor. If the track is clean, wheels, pickups, frame and brushes are in contact, it WILL move the motor. In this example, these small 10 volt pulses are at 100-200 Hertz (english: 100x/second).

As you increase ‘Speed’, the On pulse become longer and lessor for the off, so faster running. In DCC, this 16,000 times, divided by 1~128.

So unless you are in a ‘dirty’ environment (smoking, cooking, model making glues, painting, dust [you won’t believe what you see with a flashlght laid sideways on the dark layout] or, haven’t looked in trucks with the loco upside down.

 

Thanks for that, yes the price does not really make sense as you state it and that is a valid point of view.
I am approaching this as a vintage Marklin unit with Marklin German rolling stock for occasional use by the Grandies.
Smooth and reliable operation rather than the jerky stop start is the direction I would like to go to keep the Grandies interested. They soon lose interest in 'fiddling' to keep 'the train going'.
Slower speed is actually my goal to better use the sidings/decouplers to make up trains. The layout is rather small and fast trains tend to derail at the tight inner bends and points (fixing that is another task).

Good points about increased difficulty to clean.
The micro pitting is a good point to consider too as that would add up over time.

From my research so far it seems that 5 poles is the first step to smoother running (assuming track and gear are cleaned regularly).

SJ - thanks for explaining that to a layman - (like me!), it is a clear overview.

I appreciate your thoughts, thanks for sharing.

I am tucking these comments away too as my N layout is bigger and will need a deeper refresh, so please keep your advice coming.

 

Jeff you always do a good job of explaining but I will say even with pmw controllers gaugemasters make all my locos run better. I have no way to measure other than I can turn them off and get more stalls. (I have them on separate power sources so I can) Turn them on and they rarely do. No science to back it other than I know what I see.
Totally agree pmw is better than DC controllers.
I think at least in my mind over all the years the common denominator to having clean track is dry cool air.
humidity or moisture in air seems to be killer. And yes if you cook a lot burn a fire place you are in need of constant cleaning of tracks.
Recently I installed metal wheels to almost all rolling stock. I also belive that plastic wheels seem to leave residue or collect dust also.

So A Whiteman use a dehumidifier if you can. Truly believe that will help as much as any controller.
And btw I’ve done two 3 to pole conversions and yup they do make a difference! But I picked up mine for only 19 bucks. Whatever you do just make sure you like how they run. Cause trains that stall ain’t no fun!!

 

I have no experience with Gaugemaster HF, is it a good investment for a small layout, AZL / MTL locos and PWM?
I was considering using NO-OX after seeing this video:

However, more recently, the same guy posted this:
.
Hmm... but, all in all, still positive. Dust again noted as "enemy".

Anyone any experience with NO-OX in Z?

Matt

 

i use NO-OX id, but the video is 100 percent correct, it does not prevent the exact thing which flummoxes Z: debris from dropping on the track. You clean noch grass fibers out of your loco, you clean brush dust out of your open frame motored marklin and mtl locos, you clean pet hair, long human hairs, airborne particulates from open fires, kitchen cooking smoke...and all those things get deposited on your tracks. Loco wheels and axles pick them up. NO-OX id is a wax job for your track, but like a wax job on a car, it wears out and needs to be reapplied, because you will continue to need to clean Z scale track.

But NO-OX id has a big brother, DeoxIT D100L, a red liquid that de-oxidizes metal. Your shiny top rails of track aren't giving your locos their fits and starts. That gunk mentioned above, plus the simple chem reaction of tarnish, oxidization, whatever you call it, of the RAIL JOINERS getting death from the above junk, PLUS the tarnish, is causing conductivity problems. Heaven help you if you bought and assembled used track where the rail joiners were all split open and bent from multiple partners and only portions of their short length was making contact with both rails! But DeoxIT D100L can reverse the oxidation and restore connectivity. i turn paperweights back into noch briefcase layouts for my train pin money; a drop of DeoxIT D100L between each section of rail makes an inoperable Railbag into a racetrack for a BR89. When cleaning and relubing locs i use DeoxIT D100L on every electrical contact point.

But i'll save you some money from buying DeoxIT D100L: solder each section of rail together, just like the big guys weld their rails together. Continuous loop(s) of metal rails, no hidden joints to oxidize. Just clean the top rails with a chamois or small square of microfiber dipped in the cleaner of your choice.

And from my G gauge days: yes Virginia, plastic wheels DO deposit plastic gunk on the rails. Lose the mtl plastic wheels.

 

Yes. Along time ago looking into the metallurgy side of “nickel silver“ rails, and how to keep them clean when we run drains maybe once every 2, 7, 14 months. Then every Fridays at a museum facing the winds of the San Francisco Bay. Everyone was scrubbing the rails with just about every abrasive block. I could see residue from the decomposing blocks, I could wipe the rails and still have stuff come off on my white T-shirt, etc.

Then I heard about there’s No-Ox and looked it up to find it was a Grease that was used to keep oxidation away in marine environments. So I got some, and after cleaning the track and wiping it down with simple cotton white T-shirt and verify that the rails were “clean (no visible change in the white color “. Then applied the No-Ox ‘AS INSTRUCTED’. That is: Wipe a THIN coat on, wait (like when you got got done with the entire track work), then “WIPE IT OFF’. The white T-shirt virtually nothing was on it (a little hear and there, wiped a few spots to nothing.

We ran at shows for years with no issues except empty all plastic wheels. When we changed all those out the layout still worked and every show with virtually no stalling points. Eventually here in there we needed to wipe a spot or so. It’s been that way for so many years, I’m sure I know walks is long gone, but DCC is fairly particular about dirty rails and wheels, but we have been really lucky.

Now, there was another recent YouTube about that. “I will never put this on my track again“ because they have tested traction power reduction when they used No-Ox yet there’s many it also still use it and say its good. They focused on the ‘loss of traction’ via being a grease so therefor a slip enhancer. But I always have an * for the “I put it on my track and I will never put that stuff on again” as did you ‘really’ read the instructions (which there really isn’t any) but more importantly, did you put on a “thin” coat and wipe “all“ off so it’s just the metallurgy chemistry stabilization is left.

If you look at it from a metallurgy chemistry standpoint, Kerosine, Transmission fluid, Wahl Clipper Oil willstabilize a newly exposed metal. Used in the proper application to the rails, especially the inner rail head where 90% of the wheel contact (not the actual railhead!). Remember, we are talking about nearly atomic films.

Here is a clip of an article from Railroad Hobbyist Magazine (MRHmag.com)

 

But i'll save you some money from buying DeoxIT D100L: solder each section of rail together, just like the big guys weld their rails together. Continuous loop(s) of metal rails, no hidden joints to oxidize. Just clean the top rails with a chamois or small square of microfiber dipped in the cleaner of your choice.

OK, I think a new soldering iron goes on the list too!

 

Careful ! You must mind Temperatures! If fairly narrow degrees, OK. But in & out of inclinlament, sun shines on it, etc. can amazingly put out of gauge. And it just takes a few more feeders rather what ideas to change. The rail joiners have extremely high connectivity over years and even disassemble/reassembly at show. We use a 9 volt battery to test for weak contacts on the Märklin expansion tracks between module any any of on module issues. We generally can get 10 or so modules before ‘The Weakest Link’.

its the scenery process thats the major contributor. Painting the rails and glue from ballasting will flow within by capillary action, reducing surface area.