Okay guys this stupid little scale pieces GARBAGE CANT TAKE THE STUPID DERAILMENTS ANYMORE IT IS A DAMN SHAME THAT STUPID LITTLE TRAINS CANT STAY ON THE DANG TRACK!!!! GOD FORBID I HAD MY PLEXI FRAME AROUND MY LAYOUT FOR THIS STUFF TO KEEP HAPPENING ITS REALLY GOING TO SET ME OFF OVER THE EDGE!!!! ANYWAYI SET UP ABOUT 10 MARKLIN STRAIGHT FLEX TRACKS IN A STRAIGHT DANG LINE DEAD STRAIGHT NO TURNS NO NOTHING, I ATTACHED ABOUT 3 TANK CARS 6 GONDOLAS 8 HUSKY'S WITH DOUBLE LOAD ONTOP OF EACH OTHER, 6 ENGINES, 3 FRONT 3 BACK, 10 FREIGHT CARS, AND A CABOOSE. ATTACH MY FEEDER TRACK, THIS WAS ALL A TEST TO SEE HOW YOU GUYS RUN YOUR LONG FREIGHT AND COAL TRAINS WITH LIKE 50 CARS ATTACHED. SO EVERYTHING GOING SMOOTHLY AND IM CRAWLING THE TRAIN NICE AND SLOW AND EVERY SINGLE TIME THE STUPID RUNNER PACK RIO GRANDE GONDOLA CARS DERAIL. THE FIRST TIME I WAS LIKE OK ITS NOTHING SO I PUT THEM BACK ON TRACK IT HAPPENS AGAIN THEN AGAIN THEN AGAIN THEN IT KNOCKS OVER MY WHOLE TRAIN IN A DOMINO EFFECT. THE TRACK WAS NOT NAILED DOWN SO IDK IF THAT HAS TO DO WITH IT, I DOUBT IT. BUT WHAT THE HECK. I TRIED TIGHTENING THE THE STUPID TRUCKS BUT THEY WOULDN'T TIGHTEN. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS STUPID LITTLE SCALE OF TRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELPPP PLEASE!!!
Patience and patience are the most important tools in Z-scale......... No patience, stop with Z-scale, since it will only frustrate one. With the right dose of patience, Z-scale railway modeling is a great hobby.
Have you tried using MTL track, I have had great success running long trains with no derailment. I use MTL/Kadee Greas-em on stubborn trucks, and it works wonders. Mike..
Those gondolas are probably the lightest cars there. The back engines are maybe running just a tiny bit faster than the front ones and will push the lighter cars off. Two AZL SD70/75s should be able to pull 50 cars. Or three GP-35/9s. Try to not push any trains - hard for any scale. Unless you have the engine speeds perfect, you are asking for your own train wreck. Relax, Dude!
It really does not matter if you are using Z or N pushing cars with Talgo trucks (trucks with couplers attached) just does not work. We long ago learned that we need to have body mounted couplers and properly weighted cars to be able to back a long or short string through a switch into a yard etc. Secondly the track you are using has a big impact on performance. The most bullet proof in my estimation is the Micro Trains roadbed track. Several of us have run trains as shows with mid train engines and long trains but we put a lot of effort into making sure the cars are weighted and engines are speed matched so we are not pushing cars and the mid trains helpers are placed such that there is no tension of the coupler on the front of the mid train unit and if it is pushing then it is not pushing more than a car or 2 because we know that it will derail at some point if it is pushing more than this. The cars in front of the helper loco should have body mount couplers and should have additional weight added to reduce the affect of pushing on them. In addition to the above many of us go over every car and make sure the wheels are clean and in my case plastic wheels are replaced with metal wheels and I do not run Marklin cars unless they have been converted to Micro Trains trucks and couplers and are the correct weight for their length. We make sure we have fine tuned the track and have cleaned it. In my experience working with Marklin track is a never ending process of track work. I am sure there are some layouts that have been made using Markling track that work fine but those that do have owners who are pretty particular on how they lay their track down and fine tune it to get those results. So you can see we put a lot of effort into running long trains and it is not just a case of taking them out of a box and placing them on a piece of track and running them. While I can put my cars on the track with just my fingers and can tell when they are on and when they are not, I know from experience that many of us can not do this and have to use a railing device. So are you sure the cars are on the track properly. They may appear to be but you can have one axle off and not know it. There are many pictures of engines and cars on the internet and in print where one axle is not on the track which is a testament to what to this fact. There are one possible problem when you put track together that can be causing your derailments. Z track does not always go together properly and it is hard to see the rail has not slide into the rail joiner on one side and is presenting a big step up in the rail. You got to use your fingers to feel the track joint to make sure the rail is joined properly. If you wear glasses like I do there is a good chance that you will not see the rail that is not in the rail joiner until you derail at that point in the track and it will happen every time until you find it and fix it. Sometimes you can run a train in one direction and it runs fine but it wont run in the other direction and this is usually the reason. You can run over the drop off in the rail but can not run over it when you hit the blunt end of the rail. In the end Z takes a bit more attention to detail to make it run and run reliably, but once you have taken the time and to get down and personal with the track and trains they can run reliably and be a lot of fun. The most reliable track currently available in my opinion is the Micro Trains roadbed track and its Japanese equivalents in Z and it can be set up on a table top and be very reliable if you make sure the track is laid on a horizontal smooth surface. If you are going to put in grades then you need very smooth transitions to the grade both at the bottom and top of the grade. cheerz Garth
Sorry mate, but the problem is operator error, pilot error, what ever you want to call it. Others have given you sound advice so I don't need to repeat them, however, the tightening of bolster pins or trucks if that is what you mean is just the opposite of what you want to do. You want the trucks to turn freely so make sure the bolster pins are loose enough so that the trucks turn freely with no binding. Binding definitely causes derails. Bottom line is that you have a lot to learn and being a beginner in Z scale makes you subject to every little Z gremlin that exists. I doubt you have read much of the sound, sage advice that is already available from many long time Z scalers who have gone before. You don't need to touch the stove to find out that it is hot.......just ask and someone will tell you. Regarding track work......it is the key to good running trains. Z will NOT allow sloppy workmanship when it comes to performance, either in track work or loco and car maintenance. A little dust or tiny piece of grit in Z scale is actually like a basket ball size boulder in reality to the rolling stock. Pushing rolling stock with a helper is a tricky balancing act as described so accurately by Garth. He is dead on. No offense intended, but I think you are being a little bit "too eager beaver" in this case. We all want to see you succeed and have fun and the ONLY way you will accomplish this is to go slowly, I repeat, GO SLOWLY, go accurately, and by all means listen to the old farts who have gone before. I'm one of the old gasseous guys, but in all truthfulness I have not done much modeling compared to many. What I do have going for me is that I have read it all, listened to it all and have filed away in my gray matter the facts of the subject at hand. Somewhere in the deep recesses of my brain, the necessary info is stored and now I just need to access it from time to time and apply the wisdom of the ages as has been passed down to all. Can you succeed in this scale?..........absolutely, but you must pay your dues and those definitely include research, patience, and careful attention to detail when it comes to mechanical portions of this hobby. We dont' care if structures are crooked or the wrong color or even out of the era in which you model, but do listen to those who have been there, done that, and are still having fun. Now as others have said, step back, put it down for a while, read some more, keep asking questions BEFORE you jump in the water, and then I am confident you will gain the upper hand. Remember, we are your brothers and sisters in arms, (same scale) so use us to your advantage. Now, go forth and conquor.
Just use 3 engines up front, and don't use any in back. I never have good luck running helper engines. You need to have well speed matched locos, and just finding 2 matched locos is hard enough but 6 is impossible.
Wow!! You need to unlax, relax and take stock of the good news. All of us (I've been in Z for 30 years) Loren, Garth, Robert etc. have been there and done that, so you have a lot of company. The good news is now, with trainboard, you have help from your z scale brothers and sisters at your fingertips. Can't add much to what has already been said from the sage wisdom of others, but 50 foot gons are a problem when they are pushed as with long passenger cars because of the talgo mounted couplers. You may try substituding metal wheels (from Uncle will) with your Micro-Train trucks. I've found that they give a lower center of gravity, add weight and generally all around improve operations. The gons are light, and depending where they are in your consist, can cause some derailments. Try a load or some weight in them. Just take it easy and enjoy the wonders and challenges of our Scale!! Best, Ron (From the land of the Lehigh Valley).:thumbs_up:
You should have seen me build some of my earlier kits. Heck, I even smashed one and rebuilt it. Just relax. Realize what the limitations are in model RR. I'd never use a pusher loco. Heck put 6 up front instead. also, try MT sectional track. The geometery is perfect. Very good for running. Give it a try.
MrC&B, First, as has already been mentioned by others, let's tone it down here. This is a friendly place, and there are several helpful people here. You've already found, here in the Z scale forum, some of the finest modelers around, and if you give them some info instead of vent in all capitals I think you'll get some good results. The thing you say about helped engines is difficult in more than just Z scale. What you described is also hard to pull off in N scale, which is my primary scale. There are several things you may want to investigate. The first is I would try the cars that had been derailing without a helper behind them and see how that goes. Speed matching locos, especially helpers mid- or end-of-train is a hard art to master, and sometimes, given one's equipment, practically impossible. The helpers you see in the prototype scale are, I would guess, carefully run to avoid "bunching up" the train or dragging, with lots of adjustment made as grades and other conditions change. If your Rio Grande runner pack cars still derail all the time, check the coupler heights, check your trucks, check to be sure your track is in gauge. Track that is free-floating is also harder to run on because it will make little movements as a results of the trains running on top of it, and derailments can result that way. There's nothing inherently wrong with Z scale. Take a break, do something else for a while, and then come back to it and try some of the suggestions you see here and I think you will have fewer derailments. Good luck! Adam
Dear Mr. C&B, Your trying to do graduate work that is tough in ANY scale! Lighten up and have a sip of Chianti!! For pusher engines to work they have to be in tune with each other. The REAL railroads (1 to 1 scale) sometimes have troubles with this. Your many friends are behind you, listen to the good advice, learn from others, understand we ALL have gone through this before and have FUN! Best Wishes, Donna.
Well, I think you've had enough people tell you to relax, by now, so I won't bother. I know that plenty of people have told you that a pusher is not a good idea in general, but it can work. Sort of. The first thing that you have to do is determine the running characteristics of your locomotives. Determine which ones are most closely speed matched,which ones run faster, and which ones start moving first as throttle is applied. Hopefully, the ones that run a bit faster are also the ones that start moving first. These locomotives should be at the head of the train. Keeping in mind that locs that have much different speed characteristics should NOT be run together, put your slowest runner first at the tail end of the train. The lead locs will pull the train, and to some extent, the pusher, but as the lead locs slow down due to load, the slightly slower pusher will begin to advance and ease the load on the lead locs. To determine the relative speed of the locomotives, I use a standard "starter oval" (MT or Marklin). Place two locs on opposite sides of the oval and run them at your normal operating speed. The faster loc will gain on the slower. If the faster loc overtakes the slower in fewer than 3 laps, they probably shouldn't be run together, at least not on opposite ends of the train. Multiple units on the head end only or as center helpers are much more forgiving. For your application, however, the locs will have to be very closely matched. The fastest loc should be used in the lead position, coupled to the second and third fastest (in that order). At the tail end, the slowest loc should go first, followed by the second and third slowest. Keep in mind that for this to work, all of the locs have to be closely matched. The Washington DC Z-Bend Track group has, on occasion, successfully run trains in excess of 100 cars using Multiple locs in the lead and a pair of center helpers. It can be done. I have personally run coal trains in excess of 70 hoppers pulled by a pair of MT F7s. As for your gons, on rare occasions, the trucks can be a bit too loose, and the pins won't go in far enough to correct the problem. But, this is rare. There should be a small amount of wobble to the truck, and it should turn freely. If you can not achieve this, the bolset pin might have to be shortened SLIGHTLY. I like to use fine sandpaper or a fine file to do this. Also, as has been mentioned, talgo mount couplers, light cars, and pushing don't always work well together. Adding some weight under the gon loads might help a bit. Also, the mill gons do have the holes for mounting the 905 body mount couplers from MT. Just switch to trucks without couplers and body mount the couplers. The holes are in the gon, but they might have to be threaded to use them. I have posted links to the trucks, couplers and drill and tap set from MT on Z Scale Monster. Most MT Z scale dealers will have them as well. But, if you plan on using tight radius curves, you are probably better off sticking to truck mounted couplers. http://www.zscalemonster.com/mt/coupler/coupler.htm http://www.zscalemonster.com/mt/truck/truck-no.htm http://www.zscalemonster.com/mt/tool/tool.htm Dan S.
Another cause could be a trip pin hanging too low, and snagging something, then the pusher locos push the cars off the track. The likely culprit would be the car just in front of the first car to derail.
Hey guy, I hear your pain, it is frustrating to get the new stuff out and then have it not work like you want it to. As an ex-Z scaler who used to have all kinds of fun running long Z trains, I can tell you that it can be done, and with good trackwork, Z runs as well or better than any other scale. I regularly ran 40+ car trains up 2% grades and didn't really have any problems. I even used real pushers a couple of times. I had to. A long train would get stuck in a long tunnel with a 2% grade and and the two engines I had front were just spinning their wheels in a really hard to reach place on my layout, so I ran another GP up onto the back of the train and really really, and I mean really really really gently pushed the train up and out of the tunnel. It worked, it was pucker time, but it worked. The point of all this is that with good trackwork, Z is fantastic for long trains, you can hook up 50 cars behind a whole string of locomotives and run them all day long. I have done it, and I'm sure there are plenty of guys here that have too. And everything these other guys are saying is spot on, they are good, experienced modelers who know their stuff. But I'm kind of a newbie, only getting back into trains a few years ago and I don't post that much, but am a great lurker, but I thought I would throw an idea at you. Make yourself a test loop. Scrounge up a piece of plywood and make the biggest loop you can put on it. Don't worry about the flex, just get a loop of MTL plasti-track, glue it on the plywood, hook up your power pack, put some locos and cars on it and run em around a while. Put a switch or two in your loop if you want to see how they work. Take good care to make sure the track pieces are joined properly and there are no gaps or rail mis-alignments. Then ust run some trains on your loop. You will be amazed how much you can learn from just doing that, and it really is fun, especially if you've got all this stuff and no place to run it right now. When I switched from Z to N (no boooing Z guys, still dig Z, just wanted to go somewhere else with my trains) and before I built my N layout, I made a loop out of Atlas code 55. Used it to test out some DCC stuff; now that I have a Kato Unitrack DCC layout, I still use my plywood loop track to test and run DC locomotives, test cars, other things. Sometimes its just easier to do things on my simple little loop than to fire up the layout, especially when large sections of it are under construction or being sceneried. Try a loop, its good fun and good therapy. Good luck to you. Todd
Hey I would first like to apologize for my behavior. It was childish and immature. I was full of emotions that frustrated me even more. Rather then relaxing and asking politely how to fix the problem, I acted out of pure emotion. It's very unlikely for me to act that way, I just love the hobby so much and wanted to get my inner feelings out their on how such a little hobby to some can make me shout and get very upset. It means that much to me at this point in my life. I'm on the merge of building a master piece and would never want to give up! Anyway I appreciate all the advice that was given. I really thank you guys for helping me work through this dilemma perfectly and smoothly as possible! With out you guys and your guidance I wouldn't be the same modeler. Its not the structures that bother me like some you may have stated. In fact I'm better at structures and detail then I am laying track and running trains and switches. I took your advice and ran no pusher engines and indeed they ran perfect! I tested all my engines on my track and they all ran great! I jumped right into conclusions and acted foolish without consulting my z family first. A lot of you guys game me great advice that I will never forget now. Thanks a lot for all the comments love you guys/gals all too much :mbiggrin: let the layouts come to life now!
There you go........now you're not only gaining knowledge, but you're getting smarter too. We're family and every family member has their 'days' so don't sweat it. Someday you may think back to this experience and think to yourself......"wow, was I impulsive" But that is how we learn, from each other and the funny thing is that just about the time you think you have a great technique down and it is a winner, along comes someone else with an idea that makes you think, "now why didn't I think of that?" I think it is a case of often not being able to see the forest because of all the trees. There is always a surprise around every Z corner. Happy modeling, Loren
And some people have their "specialties". Meaning they specialize in one specific part of railroading. If you are really good at structures, that is great. Just like a job, some excel at certain things. But just like a job, you need to learn the parts you may not be so sure of how to do. Laying out some track like you did was experimental and you learned. If you want to find out about grades, set up some track on different grades and see what works - how many cars you can pull up. And remember that curves make grades worse. And speaking of curves, you want to try to make your radii as big as you can. Nothing looks worse than pulling long cars on small radius track. If space constraints limit you to small turns, then plan on running short cars and engines. The best part of coming to "the group of knowledge" is not having to learn the hard way - like most of us did And work your strong points of modeling (structures) and try to bring the other skills (track work, wiring,etc.) up to that level. And try out DCC. You have property in L.A. Come to the Big Train Show in Ontario, CA on June 5th, 6th. The ZoCal group will set you up to try some DCC - Our equipment. We can show you "stuff" - how easy it can be to install decoders and controls. You can also see the benefits of Z Bend modules. That is what literally pulled me into Z Scale. I saw the potential - sorry - strike that. I saw the unlimited potential of Z Bend. The layouts are never the same. Always different trains running (well except for my Surfliner running backwards) as the group gets new cars and engines. A new member brings a new module and we try our best to get that incorporated into the layout. Bigger layout - longer (and more) trains. We have had at some shows as many as four trains on each track (four on the inside, four on the outside) and pulling it off. Well as long as we don't answer questions from the public. Then we do end up with longer trains with helpers in the middle (two connected trains) or train wrecks. Watch some of my videos on Vimeo.com. Search for Z Scale. Look for the 2008 NTS where we had 25 modules and around 20 miles (scale) of mainline. ZoCal and the Baz Boyz and our Oregon pals, hooking up our modules together and having a great time. I'm looking forward to the NTS in July,2011 in Sacramento myself. Off my soapbox.
