Good to hear from you. Are we going to get rowdy? George, Have you forgotten that my layout is in a room less then 10' by 10'? That would be a small bedroom in any apartment. The tightest curve is an 11" radius curve in my hidden staging yard. The tightest curve on my main is a 15" radius and my widest is 24". No compromising on the curves. Simply, on the main, 9" or 9 3/4" radius curves are not allowed. Oh, I thought I had one over on the wye but it is one section of a 11' radius curve and I did find a niner that leads into a factory.
Nah Rick...I didnt forget...LOL. BUT...there are lots of guys with 24 inch wide layouts...thats all they have room for. With 2 inches on each edge for a safety barrier for derails...that leaves 20 to the outside rail...or 9 3/4 radius. I agree that 15, 24, 36 and wider radius are better...but sometimes its just not feasible. We all wish we had it...but then again...we all wish we could win the lottery too. *BTW...my narrowest radius is a 15...my widest...36 in 'T.H.E Train Trailer':tb-wink:. I just dont think we should kick the guys who cant make room...to the curb...:tb-err: .
No kicking allowed! Metro Red Line wrote: ""AMEN! YES! THANK YOU! BODY-MOUNTED COUPLERS ON EVERY CAR!"" EMD Trainman wrote: ""I like this view point of being able to operate in N scale with the same radius curve. Not everyone has room for big radius curves."" Thanks to both of you for your kind words. I'm glad you liked the idea... It's a concept that hit me early on as N scale was first getting a start. My HO layout was all but ready to give way to N scale. It died an untimely death and that's another story for another thread. LOL George, I had no intention of kicking anyone who, is down and out. If you truly don't have the room for a N scale layout there is Z scale. Again, I wouldn't recommend making the smallest layout or using the tightest radius curves just for layouts sake. A small switching yard can fill the needs and desires for a model railroad and give you hours of fun. A club layout can provide hours of running time. Purchase an old HO layout that somone doesn't want. Rebuild over the old roadbed, with N scale track and see what fun you can have. You're gonna like it I guarantee it. Just a few ideas shared. One's I've used, during those times when a layout wasn't feasible. You'd be surprised what you can build and the fun you can have...without compromising curve radii. cool:
I don't believe Rick meant his comment to be interpreted that way. For myself, I'd hope most folks would simply go with the widest curve radius available in their given space. Boxcab E50
Just a little clowing around. Boxcab, You are so right about my overall interpretation. Not to worry! George and I go round and round just for the fun of it. Our friendship is pretty secure and can handle a little clowing around. I know, he meant no harm. George, does make a good point...I wouldn't want to be responsible for turning someone off to N Scale Railroading, just because they don't have the room and desperately want's a layout. Thanks, I do appreciate your watching my back. cute:
Another reason I LOVE N Scale...the camaraderie !! I aint sayin the other scales dont get along with each other...I am just sayin we in N have a lot more fun with it IMHO. Yup Rick and I pester each other all the time. Just good clean fun. We do have times we get a little defensive in our opinions...BUT...we are secure in our friendship. One of these days I will get out his way and check out some of his 'turnouts' LOL:tb-tongue: .
Absolutely! When I attended the first annual Ohio N Scale weekend in Hillard(Columbus area) I was taken aback how friendly everybody was...I wasn't quite use to this after attending several HO functions where everybody was-well to put it mildly-standoffish. ------------------------ BarstowRick wrote: A small switching yard can fill the needs and desires for a model railroad and give you hours of fun. ------------------------ Now you talking my lingo..
I forgot in my earlier post that a N layout is also far more expensive then HO. Before you start typing figure this: On the same layout size under both scales the N is going to cost you more! More pieces of track more buildings more trees more rolling stock more turnouts, just more of everything because you have more room. Thus more money spent. Do to some of the limitations explained about HO in this thread for why N you will spend less on HO. 20 cars that look good on the HO won't do on N. Got to have 40 because you can do it. $$$$$$$$ Just thought I would have a little fun with you all. LOL And as I explained before if I had the money I would probably have N too.
N scale is really two scales with a big 'ol fault line down the middle (don't mind me, we had an earthquake in PA yesterday).... You've got the guys that use N because they can't find space for HO (which includes me, the Hickory Valley is 18x36"). Don't bust on us because we use 9 3/4" radius. And truck-mounts, because we DO have to couple on curves. You've got the guys that have plenty of space, entire basements, and choose N deliberately for the scenery factor, run wide curves and long trains (me too, sorta, on the ATSF layout, which is 8 x 5' 6", normal small HO size) The 'train set' legacy of 9 3/4, truck mounts, etc. seems to really bother some and I'm perfectly happy to let the manufacturers and the market sort it out. Rapidos were the first to fall, thankfully, for a lot of manufacturers. MT has gone from deep flanges to thin flanges to a medium compromise flange that seems to have calmed that down a bit. Simply put the market is a nice factor here, if there's demand for an idea that is reflected in buying habits then 'politically' it won't be enforced one way or the other. I only get grumpy when there seems to be a movement to somehow 'ban' something. Hey, I spend money...and I'm willing to let money talk. If my interests become a niche, so be it. But the question is what makes N so popular? compared to other scales? Any more it isn't just the size factor, if it were strictly size Z would have a marked advantage. But if you're going to do modern railroading then we're back to start - with HO you need a LOT of space, with N you need the space you used to need for a small HO layout. Heck, on my 8x5'6" I'm running an 18-car piggyback train behind three six-axle units on 13" curves and I'm good. Try that in HO without a full basement. Oh, and on the car counts, that's a bit misleading. Remember that your typical intermodal car is now multi-platform. A five-pack deep-well container car is hauling 10 containers, each of which is effectively a 'boxcar' under the old days, under one reporting mark and one car count today. Working in the railroad industry (and with shortlines) its increasingly frustrating dealing with the Class 1's because most major city-to-city corridors now have ONE, repeat ONE 'general merchandise mixed freight' per day from point-to-point in a corridor. If you're analyzing a cross-country move and you miss that connection, add a day to transit time. The only way it changes is if there's too much traffic to fit in one train, or if two city-to-city corridors run over the same line. Now factor in the 2-3 day per week service of a typical shortline.... Sit out in Arizona and watch BNSF work on the Transcon. intermodal. intermodal. intermodal. intermodal. oh wow, a general freight! intermodal. intermodal. intermodal.... So if you're modeling that, on what people see TODAY, yeah, I don't see much practicality on doing that in 18" curves on Bachmann train sets in HO today on the old classic 4x8 table. It doesn't reflect what it out there. Put 18" curve on N with some Katos GE's and multi-platform cars on the same 4x8 table in N, or a 15-car unit coal train model, and you're in business with today's railroading. That's my point. That's the paradign shift of the reality out there.
Oh, and on the car counts, that's a bit misleading. Remember that your typical intermodal car is now multi-platform. A five-pack deep-well container car is hauling 10 containers, each of which is effectively a 'boxcar' under the old days, under one reporting mark and one car count today. -------------------- That's a tad misleading since I seen well cars with single containers or 4 stacked containers in 5 wells.In other words the first 2 wells was loaded the the other wells was hauling air. ------------------ Sit out in Arizona and watch BNSF work on the Transcon. intermodal. intermodal. intermodal. intermodal. oh wow, a general freight! intermodal. intermodal. intermodal.... ----------------- Again that's only part of a very large picture..How about BNSF's other lines? ----------------- Those numbers I used comes straight from the weekly performance reports from the railroads.They should know many cars they handle and what type.I just copied and paste the numbers straight from the source. As far as "ONE, repeat ONE 'general merchandise mixed freight' per day from point-to-point in a corridor." Come trackside with me along the CSX and NS and count the general freight trains running on the double track..You see NS moved 71,466 cars during the week ending 06/18/10 CSX moved 54,702,BNSF moved 65,934 and UP moved 69,740 during the week of 06/18/10.. It will take more then one train in each corridor to move that much freight.Even through Bucyrus NS runs 50-55 trains per day.
WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? Turnouts, TURNOUTS, they are called SWITCHES!cute: LOL.......... well, I may not win that one but you can't blame for trying. Right? Old George, you are welcome here anytime. I just hope you remember the train shed can easily become the wood shed if you so much as breathe "Turnout". Grin! Good old American Railroad Lingo. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming and car counting. Car Counting? Hunnnh? This is what makes N scale popular? You bet! When I can run 30 car trains up my 2% grades in an area smaller then most bedrooms in an apartment. I'm a happy camper.
That piggyback train sounds impressive, I never thought there would be that much of a huge difference between running that same train in HO scale as far as space requirements.
They had Conrail Days at the Pennsylvania Museum and they were running long trains in both HO & N scale. I couldn't believe how smooth the N scale ran. But the kids were attracted to the HO laout due to the display people were allowing kids to operate them with the DCC controller. The area of scenery was much broader on the N scale layout however.
It's hard to find that in G scale due to the fact there are so many variations of G scale and everyone thinks thier variation is correct. To explain further, G scale is just a general loose term for Garden Trains. In reality you have many scale ratios that fit into G scale such as 1:22.5, 1:24, 1:29, 1:32, then you have a even tighter niche group of people who are narrow gauge people which is a 1:20.3 scale ratio and the falls into a different scale catagory called Fn3. When I go to the East Coast Large scale train shows, it's almost like when I was going to car shows. You have your clubs and they stuck to themselves, not too many inter mingled with others. I'm laid back and the arguement over which trains is more prototypical should be put on the back burner at a show and just "Run for Fun" who cares what is more prototypical, model trains are meant to relieve stress, not cause more. Some G scale people can be up tight when it comes to being prototypical.
I know what you mean, I see this quite often at the East Coast Large Scale train show ( G scale train show ) I will say however the few freindly people that you do meet are great, but few and far in between.
Actually , this makes complete sense if you have the same area lets say the old 4 X 8 layout, you would need more things to fill it in N than HO. But I have noticed that HO locos with DCC and Sound are super expensive. I seen them on a average price of $225.00. More often I could buy the same loco in G scale for the same price, but without the sound and DCC of course. When I do a cost comparison that way such as Lionel O gauge vs G scale, it made more sense to go bigger because I think I'm getting more train for the buck. Some of the high end Lionel O gauge cars sometimes cost as much as a G scale version for the same car. But of course the space is a big factor. I never did a detail comparison however.
I did notice reading some train hobby magazines the amount of neat and huge buildings and manufacturing plants available commercially as a kit or already assembled. That has been my biggest gripe in G scale, there is very few building selections and what buildings there are is super expensive. You are pretty much making your own buildings in G scale.
I will agree if you are trying to build a 4x8 spagehtti layout. Cramming as much track in a 4x8 space as humanly possible seems the norm for HO. That is not the case in N scale for the most part. N does not cost more than HO --- #1 - more than likely you won't be building a 4'x8' because of the size considerations mentioned before me. #2 - just because you have the space doesn't mean you need to fill it up with buildings and track. My main reason for N scale is the scenery to track ratio. I like the feeling that the train came from some place and is going to another place. That feel just doesn't happen in HO without a huge layout. #3 - track costs will be just about the same, you are covering the same linear ft. and track prices aren't that much different between N and HO. Most will recomend picking an HO layout that you like and building it in N, the same size as the HO, or at least as big as you can stomache. #4 - (this one was only learned after helping with a good sized HO layout) In HO details are more visible and thus more important. A large building in N scale can have a blank view block put in it and it will work fine. HO buildings have large enough windows that you can see inside them. With this you need to fill those buildings with interiors. All the little details add up quickly in HO. Things I wouldn't even bother trying to model in N, make a layout look completely empty if they are not there in HO. This is the HO layout that I am learning my lessons on before I finish my N scale layout..... *** Clicking on the picture will take you to the rest of the gallery.*** It is 16 x 16 L with a 35" radius double track main. My N scale layout will be proportionatly about the same size a 10 x 12 L. The HO layout is approaching $30K if not more. My N will come nowhere close to that, I just can't afford it, although working on this layout is helping by for my N habit. As far as why is N more popular, from working in a Hobby Shop, the number one consideration is space. Most people new to the hobby looking at N, first look because of space limitations. Soon they realize that they really aren't giving up anything by chosing N over HO. N now has sound, and detail that rivals the HO stuff, takes up less space, allows for longer trains, more scenery and helps give an overall better imprssion of modeling a railroad, not a train.
