As one of the larger N-Scale mail order suppliers on the East coast (sorry, we are going to keep our name out of this for this post - those of you who DO know which one we are please keep it to yourself) we can't help but throw our two cents into this topic of ATLAS vs. KATO. As a dealer we must report that sales of ATLAS products have dropped dramatically in the last year while sales of KATO continue to increase. After being in the business 10 years we have developed some personal relationships with our customers and we have asked as many as we can "what is the deal with ATLAS, how come you are not buying it any more?". The number one answer we received is lack of quality. Many of our customers feel that while ATLAS has attempted to copy the KATO mechanism that they only been 75 to 80% sucessful at doing so. The cite examples such as some of you did as the DCC implementation not being as well thought out as KATO's and also the fit of the parts specifically body shells and fuel tanks which don't fit well on the chassis. Also (and we know this is going to open up "Pandora's box" but we are going to say it anyway because it's coming from our customers, not from us). They feel that the resale value of the ATLAS Chinese produced models is very low. Looking through eBay, we tend to agree with their comments. We realize that most people buy trains to run them but some of our customers do buy them to collect and hopefully make a few bucks on in the future and so the resale value has become an issue. Getting away from that issue entirely, we also hear comments like "We know that ATLAS locos have a few more factory installed detail parts than the KATO's but unless the model is of good quality it makes no difference how many extra detail parts are on it." Well there you have it. These comments come from our customers not us. We have tried to offer constructive cristicisms in this post without dissing ATLAS and/or the people of China so we hope that no one was offended by our comments and that no Moderator and/or Administrator of this forum will have to edit this post for content. We have tried to obide by the rules of Trainboard.com with all of the comentary contained in this post. Thank you for reading it.
Your posting is fine with valid points. Ok I will close the other related Kato/atlas topic and continue the discussion here.
SwissRHB, I agree with the comments of your customers. I have two Atlas N-Scale RS-1's, one built by Kato about ten years ago, and the other by the Chinese just recently. The Kato unit is far superior mechanically. It is quieter, starts earlier, and much more consistant low speed operation. When they are double-headed, even though they both have virtually identical top speeds, the Kato unit ends up pushing or dragging the Chinese unit. The "good ole" Atlas quality has not kept up with their competition. Sorta like when IBM thought they owned the computer industry in the late 70's ... IBM almost lost their corporate butt to those inovative "Upstarts". IBM has never recovered! IBM even turned down Bill Gates with his offer to share, then sell Windows! Atlas ... if you don't heed history, you are DOOMED to repeat it! Hank [ 20 April 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
I have two older Atlas units...both RS 1s. Both are very quiet and run smootly. Were these built by Kato or Atlas? Since I can't really afford to buy new items, I tend to go for used engines, and I think that I may be in good luck sticking with the older Atlas units if they have truely dropped their level of quality. It is a shame that they feel the need to do this, but frankly, I have seen it before. I used to be in HO, as many of you know. There was a time when you could not GIVE me a Bachmann engine, and now they are one of the top sellers. Same with Mantua. I am certain that the executives over at Atlas will figure out that there is a problem when their sales drop, and rectify it the same way Bachmann has...offer several price levels of engine for all levels of modeling. For now, I just enjoy working those old Atlas units! Happy Modeling!! John
My Kato units, a GP38-2 and an EMD F3 A and B units which I purchased about ten years ago and I have two Atlas GP40-2 units purchased last year. The Kato GP38 has run well until this year when the metal shield started touching the armature. Prior to that it ran very well and with a slight whine to the motor. The EMD F3s also run well but are quite noisy compared to the GP38. The Atlas GP40s run very well too and are about as noisy as the Kato EMD F3s. The Kato locos feel a little heavier than the Atlas locos and have better pulling power. The Kato locos start at a higher current setting than the Atlas ones. I have not seen how a new Kato unit runs. Price wise at the hobby store, Kato is a few dollars more than Atlas but not much. I hope I can get my Kato GP38 running propely again as I can't afford to replace it and those of you that know me know I prefer steam. My Riverossi locos run well at times but can be frustrating. Somehow I need to add flywheels to these locos. With all this said, I will buy either Kato or Atlas depending on who makes the loco I want. They are both good makes and I have no reason to choose one over the other.
I have an A/K RS-11, and it runs great. Smooth starts, but took a little while longer to break in. I'll take the Kato anyday. I have 3 Dash 9's and wouldn't give 'em up unless I absolutely had to..
Thanks for comments Swiss. I have to say that for good running, I do prefer my kato locomotives, especially the C44's. But I am also satisfied with my Atlas ones, although I have to admit that they do not quite have the "quality" feel of Kato. Detail-wise, I really do not care too much, as I always add the correct details for the prototype being modelled anyway. Locomotive detailing is, for me, very satisfying
When I first got into the hobby. I started with N scale. The junky engines on the market turned me off quick, and I graduated up to HO. Nowadays, from what I'm seeing of diesels from Atlas and Kato, the quality has improved greatly. Instead of griping about Atlas vs. Kato, be happy you actually have two fine lines to argue about. This is kinda like the Athearn vs. Atlas vs. Kato vs. P2K et al arguments in the HO section. If I keep gawking at N scale, I may be tempted to return.....anybody wanna buy some used HO stuff? I'd take Atlas AND Kato over the pre-P2K Lifeless and pre-Spectrum Bachmann any day.
I Posted a something very similiar to this a few weeks ago in the pit. My point is as follows. I think it important to remember most modellers usually try to model an era. I try to model Modern BN/BNSF and MRL mainly. I also have DCC Canadian (just to confuse my wife). This limits the particular model I can purchase. Over the last six years Nscale modellers have been blessed having been able to purchase the following models (not conclusive): KATO GP38, GP50, F7 U30C, SD40, E8, C30-7, SD45, SD40-2, C44-9CW, SD80 and SD9043(soon). Atlas GP7, GP9, SD7*,U25B*, GP30*, GP35*, GP35, GP38,GP40,GP40-2, SD50, SD60, SD60M, SD35, * = Kato drive L^2 BL2, GP38, E8, GP18, SD7, SW1500, GP20, E6 This list is not conclusive, off the top of the head so to speak As I model a particular era I am limited as to what I can buy. I am modelling a modern era, I therefore have very few older first and second generation engines in my roster. I am limited to basically Atlas and Kato (at this stage). I now have no steam engines at all, I sold Colonel my Big Boy and recently unloaded my three Mikado's to purchase DCC decoders. I would however, drive my short arms into my long pockets if L^2 introduced a modern Diesel such as an AC4400CW or an SD70. The running quality of their engines has improved greatly since the GP18 and BL2. I do tend to run my Kato's more than anything else, not because they, in my limited opinion run the best, but after you detail them with the little things such as beacons, antennas, plows and a touch of paint they get a personality, you add to that personality. (thats what modellings about) I try to resist rating any engine better than any other however, if affordability, reliability, maintainability and functionality are important in an engine, for mine you cannot go past the three I have mentioned, each has its own quirks, faults and attributes, people will undoubtedly defend their particular choice. As I initially stated, it depends upon the era you are modelling, the choice is then yours. If was given the choice between a Kato and an Atlas, for mine, there is only choice, the Kato. The analogy I use with my wife is a Kato is a Mercedes Benz, an Atlas is a Lexus (Looks good now but in a few years it might not have the same performance and asthetic characteristics).
As a European modeller I have been following this and the now deceased related discussions with great interest. I cannot comment on Atlas locos but the Kato models of European prototypes are very good and they appear to share the same characteristics as those outlined by the various contributors who model the U.S.scene i.e. good-runners, quality feel but lacking slightly in detail. There have been comments made that have apparently breached Trainboard's code of conduct but I personally have not been offended. That is, until I read the last posting............You can condemn Atlas as much as you like but I love my Lexus !!
On John's last point, in the recent well respected JD Power Survey, the Lexus came top of the heap, by a good margin. Mercedes was nowhere in sight! In fact, one Merc model was second from the bottom of a couple of hundred cars I have driven a friends Lexus (saloon) also his wife's 4 wheel drive Lexus, and they are much better than the Mercedes he used to have. (I cannot afford those types of cars myself) (He also has a Ferrari) However, back to trains I was at at model railway exhibition several years ago, where a trader had a Japanese "Bullet Train" in N scale (Kato) running very slowly and smoothly around a test track. I asked, tongue-in-cheek if it would go any slower, he promptly slowed it down to a barely perceptible crawl. From then on, I have been aware of the superb running qualities of Kato products.
Thanks for the support Alan, As you have no doubt guessed my comments were a little "tongue in cheek" but based on my experience with European Kato models I think they are valid. I saw that the thread was beginning to lose steam and saw no harm in injecting a little light-hearted humour. Before anyone starts asking for a loan can I point out that it is only an IS200. Happy modelling (and driving) John
I'm glad to see that things have cooled down a bit. And yes Atlas's QC problems are a ligit modeling concern for it is not good to bring a new engine home and have to take it to the work bench first thing before it can even be test run. I have posted a quick fix for the (not to be talked about) wheel wobble in Atlas engines, some poeple actually contacted me for more precise instructions so I know it wasn't just my clubs trackwork. And I must agree eye candy does not make-up for poor workmanship in any product.
WOW after reading you guys I must be the luckiest guy in the world. All my Atlas engines run great! However, I got a set of Kato F7's that the best I can say for them is that they are better than their Bachmann counterparts. And can someone please tell me why an undecorated F7 shell is $25.00?
Squirrelkinns, Maybe you could post a new topic either in N scale or the Inspection Pit about how too remedy the wheel wobble problem? I for one would be interested in reading about it.
The wobble fix is currently at the bottom of your page two N-Scale listings (soon to be top of page three). it is a simple fix really.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inkaneer: WOW after reading you guys I must be the luckiest guy in the world. All my Atlas engines run great! However, I got a set of Kato F7's that the best I can say for them is that they are better than their Bachmann counterparts. And can someone please tell me why an undecorated F7 shell is $25.00?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kato did admit to some QC problems with the f7's motors but other than that I haven't seen any of them with problems of than ware-and-tare.
