John and Allan The Mercedes / Lexus mave have been a poor analogy however, to my wife, a black SL Mercedes is the only car (better than her Honda Odessey). Hope you saw my point.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MRL Mick: I Posted a something very similiar to this a few weeks ago in the pit. My point is as follows. I think it important to remember most modellers usually try to model an era. I try to model Modern BN/BNSF and MRL mainly. I also have DCC Canadian (just to confuse my wife). This limits the particular model I can purchase.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excellent point here. I, too, model modern era, bigtime UP coal-hauling out of the PRB. So that leaves a spot on my roster for SD90/43s and AC4400s (which there is no model of) so I'm getting the Kato SD90/43s. No SD70Ms or AC6000s avalable, I have C44s (Kato), C40s (Bachmann), SD60s (Atlas) and a GP50 (Kato). Keep in mind, I'm also not afraid to tinker and play with locos until they look and run the way I want them to. I think a real good test will be when the Kato SD90/43s (2 on order, plus an 80) come out and the new run of Atlas SD60s (2 on order). Both are due out around the same time, so I think I'll do a comparison and review of them when they do.
Michael: No problems with your comments whatsoever..... Just playful banter. I think you made a good point about Atlas/Kato being the only available makes for those modelling a particular era. A similar situation (albeit with different manufacturers) often affects European modellers. If you need a particular loco you can't always afford to be choosy. Take care, John P.S. It looks like I spoke too soon about this thread running out of steam. [ 22 April 2001: Message edited by: John Whitby ]
Hmmm, interesting thread. First let me say that performance and detail are about equal in my criteria for an engine. I as some in the thread have said like to detail my engines BUT detail does not start or end with what one adds, the detail for me starts with accurate research and giving a product that the molded on detail is fairly accurate and fine. My point being battery boxes, trucks, fans, louvers and the like as most of these I may enhance but don't replace. Personally I think Atlas goes farther in this regard as an example the number of different shells produced for the B23-7 and Train Master. I own 84 diesel engines, the vast majority being Atlas and Kato with a small sprinkling of LL. I feel that Atlas is about 95% of Kato, a lil better in detail a lil worse in performance. Atlas goes a long way toward making me happy by making high short hoods and making DCC installed engines (a few more minutes to model or run my stuff!). I do not hesitate to buy either a Kato or Atlas and think for the street price of each they are about equal value. And contrary to popular opinion I don't think LL is as good a value much less better...when you take the shell off a LL you will see weights that look formed by hand that remind me of chewed bubble gum, the ones I own or have taken apart have PLASTIC frames that flex, and a fair amount of slop in the gears. Bottom line I own more Atlas then Kato including Kato/Atlas with Kato, this is because they have produced the most engines for my proto. Further though there is no Atlas or Kato that I want that I don't have even though Atlas is always easier to obtain. I'll look at 2001 so far I have 6 Atlas SD35s and 4 B23-7s, I will be getting 2 SD60Ms and 5 GP 38s so thats 17 Atlas in one year all of those by July if they hold to schedule. As for Kato I am waiting for my 2 SD80MACs and will get a AMD103 or two IF they get them out this year. For me Atlas is a great company and is doing a decent job though not quite as good as Kato BUT they are putting models in my hands and Kato is NOT. As for the resell price, though not a big issue with me, resell price is usually set by collectors (for mint pieces) and that has FAR more to do with supply than it does with quality, though quality does help. When you consider how rare Katos really are and the almost non existent reruns I would expect Katos to have an even higher resell than they do! As for Atlas being merely eye candy, I think that statement is so much bunk, sure there seem to be more QC probelms with Atlas than Kato but again I think all in all they are equal values. I will admit QC becomes less of a problem when you buy and sell more than 100 locomotives a year like I do, who do you think keeps the "cream of the crop". An example is I have bought and sold about 15 LL SW9/1200s in the last 6 months, I went through about 10 or so before I had 4 sets of trucks/gears that the friction in them was low enough to satisfy me, so those four good sets now live under my 2 Southerns and the rest live elsewhere. I have "shell" swapped several Katos and Atlas engines as well serching for the "perfect" mechanisms. Maybe I have been lucky but the percentage of Atlas engines I have had with problems are about equal to that of the Katos, one thing I would say is that the Atlas problems seem to be more minor and at the same time more frustrating (coupler pins, wheel wobble etc) where my Kato probs have been more catastrophic (like my DOA Mike). Its easier to send a DOA engine back for repair than it is to convince a tech that there is a small wheel wobble when my eyes and standards may be higher than his or hers. If you want to talk about a poor value, again rip open a LL and tell me its worth even the half Kato or Atlas price they sell for in stores. For an accurate measure of perceived value look at eBay prices, LLs "better" engines usually sell for 1/3 of their list where Atlas and Kato are ~55% or more (I am talking current still available releases). Lets see though they run slower at 12v LLs are poorly made, have bulbs vs LEDs, are NOT DCC friendly, oh and when was the last time you saw cellophane tape in an Atlas or Kato or foam glued to the inside of the shell??? Even a lesser value is Bachmann but don't wanna get started there! Atlas, Kato you both make me happy ...as for the rest well.... Vandy
Vandy, A great post thanks for spending the time posting. I have to agree with you on most of your points. i also run mainly Atlas and Kato and have never had a problem with either. The only point I differ is that the later of lifelike products are at least 70% of the quality of Atlas and Kato. I have 4 GP20's and 2 sw-9's and they have performed to my satisfaction. Sure they may not hold there value on the resale market but I buy mine for personnel use. I suppose I'm in a different situation where the australian dollar has devalued over the past 4 years, I will pay $70 aus for life like compared to $230 for a Kato SD90. I did reently buy an Atlas SD35 for $140 which is great value. All in all though Kato and Atlas are heads above the other manufacturers if only they were not limited runs lol oh oh another hot topic we could discuss
Good points Vandy I also have a lot of engines well over 100, and as a rule I steer clear of L^2, I have 8 Switchers and three NP GP18s. I like you also look at conversion to DCC, this is a factor I consider. I think from the last two Atlas releases I have not got one simply because they are out of era, I could of swung a B23-7, but DCC and decoders are the priority. Out of the L^2 switchers they all had paint problems, my mates UP had chips of paint fall from it. I have not had this problrm on a Kato or an Atlas and yes, I studied and inspected all of my SD60s after the paint problem post appeared on the board. If any one else has had paint problems with switchers perhaps we begin another thread?
Another important factor is the availability and price of parts/spares. In this regard I believe ATLAS is far superior to ALL others. Recently, a GP35 undec shell from ATLAS....$9.00, -vs- a U30C shell from KATO....$25.00.....???? I don't deny anyone a profit, but is this intentional price-gouging? Then again, what's the alternative? ATLAS has done a lot for N scale, and after being in it since 1970, I sincerely believe it was ATLAS not CONCOR, TRIX or KATO who kept "American Style" N scale alive during the "lean" years (and yes, Bachmann gets credit in this area too!). Maybe the rivet counters aren't fond of ATLAS, but for those of us who have 40+ units in operation at any given time, ATLAS to me, represents the maximun in dependability, fidelity, support, selection, and most importantly VALUE!
Whatever the shortcomings of either brand, if Kato or Atlas pulled out of the American market, we would all be the poorer. Like others, I only buy locomotives that are in my era, whichever brand they happen to be.
I prefer the Kato mechanism. Their flywheel works. The locomotive does not stop on a dime, as the old non-flywheel equiped models did and as Atlas and Lifelike does. My old A/K mechanism are good, but lighter than the Kato mechanisms of the same time period. The Atlas is improving though. Jerry
With DCC problems in Atlas...you can try this fix. With the plug and play decoders a problem has been found, the can have a slight bow to them when installed. This bow can create contact problems. If you are having trouble with your decoded DCC Atlas unit try this solution. Get cardboard, much like the sheet that comes with a new shirt for from the laundry. cut out a very small piece and fold it in two or more (you need to experiment). Then place this folded sheet on top of the plug and play decoder to force the bow down when the shell is again re-installed. If this solution works, then continue to use this piece of card board or glue a suitable styrene piece underneath the roof of the shell of the Atlas engine.
