I read this "Toy Train Layout" reference used several times describing a various layout plans (some of them mine:tb-smile I did not take offence to this term but it set to thinking what is a toy train layout. In my opinion a toy train layout is either a wind up or battery powered train set running on 2 or 3 rail track. It used to made of tin but today it's usually plastic. I don't even consider Thomas a toy train. IMO Too call an N or HO or any other scale a "Toy Train Layout" is somewhat insulting. This are expensive things and nowhere in the toy category. Even a simple oval layout is not a toy train. So you have my opinion. What's yours? Lets keep this conversation civil and respectful of each others opinions. :thumbs_up: See ya Ron
I agree it is demeaning. But I do consider the Thomas trains as true toys. Even the under the Christmas tree set ups should be referred to as displays.
It's a sliding scale based on one's orientation to one's scale and approach to modelling, and it is based on an egocentric view. My HO scale trains are better and have more fidelity to their prototypes than your tinplate...can't you see that!? It's so obvious to me....that kind of egocentrism. Any representation of the actual revenue-based artefact is a toy. It may be a mere model if it operates in every respect except as a fully functional device where revenue generation is its prime purpose..you see those in museums, for example, and they typically run at 1:6 scale or something like that. Everything works. All others intended for viewing pleasure or for recreating the looks, sounds, feels, and smells of railroading are toys....period. Yup, yours and mine. In that respect, what they 'run' on are also models, and are mere supports in scale for the toys to augment the realism.
To non-hobbyists, a toy train is probably everything from Thomas running around the Christmas tree to Miniatur Wunderland. Personally, I look for an attempt at realism. Is the track ballasted? Are the curves "believeable," even if they are impossibly tight from a prototype perspective? Are the figures, structures and automobiles to scale? Does the layout have a complete absence of dinosaurs and flying saucers? If so, I'd say it's a model, not a toy.
Cool topic. I see this not only in trains (more prevalent in trains) and RC airplanes and helicopters. It is pretty tough when an uneducated person comes up and says that "is a neat toy." According to Wikipedia, a toy is: "A toy is a thing used in play. Toys are usually associated with children and pets, but it is not unusual for adult beings and some non-domesticated dogs, cats, mice etc. to play with toys." Well in my mind, making a scale model is not playing. In Wikipedia "Play refers to a range of voluntary, intrinsically motivated activities that are normally associated with pleasure and enjoyment." Gee that means we are playing unless someone is doing it for reasons other than "associated with pleasure and enjoyment." But wow, it really injures the ego, because when someone says we are playing it makes us feel like we are being childish for playing. Now, come on.....Isn't snowmachineing, skiing, golf, fishing, etc., playing? I think we like to think of our hobbies as very sophisticated and requiring a great deal of skill, patience, and diligence. Once women get their kids brought up and have a little extra time they play in the garden, the house, sewing, etc. So, why is it that in particular trains get the toy label over other hobbies? I think, because folks think real trains and then hear when it is a hobby, it becomes toy in their mind. Also, the smaller it is in relation to the original/real thing, makes it more toylike in the eye of the lay person. Our toys when we were young were smaller and charachterized real items, thus leading to small replicas being called toys. It all boils down to perceptions and egos. Great thread!:thumbs_up:
When done my layout will be more of a kintetic sculpture than a model railroad. I won't blame serious model railroaders for denigrating it but will at the same time chalk it up to a closed and narrow mind. I saw the comment I believe you are refering to. At first I was put off by it but I remembered this is trainboard and that in general folks do not mean to be derogatory. I chalked it up to a bad choice of words.
It's really a very simple matter of keeping it all in perspective. These things we play with are indeed nothing more thatn toys. very detailed, very intricate, often the result of hours of work...or a couple minutes drooling before we simply dropped the money to buy it!!! The greatest words of wisdom I have ever heard on this matter were "YOU ARE A TOOOO--OOOOY!!!" It's only insulitng if you have allowed your ego to make this hobby into something more than it is - that is, if you have let your imagination overpower your good sense. It's a good thing, sometimes. In most, though, it's not indusive to healthy realtionships or managing one's priorities. When I see one of my toys crash to the floor, it still hurts, but it's in perspective. As was the time my baby brother dragged the HO Lionel crane up the stairs by the boom. I'm still impressed I didn't get mad. Yes, the boom broke. I got over it pretty quick. Now why do model trains get the "Toy" label quicker than other hobbies like snowmobiles or hotrods or one of those many other extremely expensive manly hobbies? Perhaps because our hobby is just as aptly done by a child as it is by an adult. Anybody else remember Craig Martyn's early work? Yes, I said it. The only advantage you and I have over a child is the one of experience, but otherwise, a child can just as well use an exacto, a razorsaw, a drill, and most of the other devices we use in our hobby. I only know because I have been doing so myself since I was a child!! If you want to do something "Serious" go ahead...Become a manufacturer!! THEN you are a business! And there are people who build rather serious models - scratchbuilders, we oft call them, but few of us have the time or tenacity to tackle projects on that level. We see their work in museums, it's typically priced in the four and five figure price level. Naturally, most of us cannot afford an original Picasso or Monet - so we buy something from the picture store that looks good and put it on our wall - perhaps a reproduciton print - and it's for a very much different reason versus the fine art collector, who has their light temperature and air controlled gallery sheltering their collection. We're putting something on the wall to enjoy, they're putting something on the wall to esteem! For the most part we are the world's largest and most active group of diorama builders...right along side the wargamers...But we're not gaming, so it's not a competition, and thus not a game. All attempts thus have had only a light following. We are pretty far beyond the "toy train set" level though, and "sets" was also surpassed a long time ago as well, which is why I use the word "collection" to describe what I have. It's a Toy Train Collection.
Wow. This is a good question. I can see myself answering this a bazillion different ways. The first thing that comes to mind is a toy train, or toy train layout is any one or more of the following... 1. Not to a true scale and is based on a caricature of the prototype. 2. Intended for short term amusement with little supervision. 3. Sometimes based on fantasy or fiction characters 4. Original design and manufacturing intent is a replication or artifact of a train intended solely for play. Like many of you, I, over the years have had to let some of the comments roll off my back. Our hobby is the source of much sanity for me. So I am not offended (or openly offended ) if others that do not participate or know much about our hobby, advocation refer to it as a "toy train" layout. Ours is an art form where we are: Historians, painters, electricians, carpenters, crafstmen, collectors, planners, mechanics, etc. "Men and boys and the price of their toys"... as it were.
Kitbash, I have met a few of these... I've met historians and discovered their work encompasses far more than I ever dreamed when it comes to "research." I've met painters and quickly learned my painting skill is mere dabbling compared to their effortless motion. I've met electricians and quickly learned I know nothing about Electricity. Sure, I learned a lot about wiring my house from the handbook, but as soon as that box opened, I knew I was out of my element. I've met carpenters and recognize the different between the wood I knock together and their fine cabinetry. I've met framers and I know my benchwork is what they throw together at the beginning of the day to set their tools and lunchbox on while they put together the REAL benchwork...all of which is done by sundown on the sixth day...and with enough lumber to support a 2000' Mainline in HO scale. I've met craftsmen and quickly realized my work comes out of bags half done...Their work starts with stock materials I've met collectors and quickly realized they no longer use the things they collect - they collect to exhibit. To do so would ruin the collector's value - as would cleaning, refinishing, modifying, or doing anything to it at all. I've met architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, and a multitude of other planners. Their work made mine look like stick figures done with crayon. I also met a couple city planners, elected official type; seems their work description was the opposite of what they did, as it seemed the only thing they planned were more meeetingson how to not plan what they were planning to not do until after re-election... I've met a few mechanics and quickly realized what I do under the hood may put me close in kin to the grease monkey who changes my oil as well as I do, but it puts me no where near what that guy down at the garage does inside my engine. Out comes the bent rod, in goes the new rod... So in the short of it, I'm just a Hobbyist, an enthusiast of El Ferro Carril. I may do little things common to these other trades, but I could never in good faith call myself by those other professions. I know better!!!
To me it goes to the Wikpedia definition,,,,,and it's the INTENDED USE that is the defining factor. If it's intended as a plaything for kids, it's a toy, no matter how well it's sceniced or what scale. If it's intended purpose is to accurately represent a certain RR or area, or for prototypical operations, then it's a model. I guess you could argue that model RRers are still playing though.hmmmmmmmmmm. Guess I'll go back to the definition which says "children". But I guess most of us are just big kids......hmmmmmmmmm. I give up.
1. Well, the true "Scale" is 1:1...so, nope, it's not to true scale. The guys playing with the 1:1s sure don't get the "Oh, you play with toy choochoos" comments...they just get the "You play with real trains??!" puzzlement followed by the look of complete "You play with real trains" astonishment when they come by the shop and see a 700 lb 33" freight car wheel... 2. Short term amusement with minimal supervision...Given how much we have offered to us to by, I'd say the amusement of any one piece is quick short term, and as for the supervision part, well, we've been ignoring that even when the set box had those glaring digital font words "ADULT SUPERVISION REQUIRED." Even now as adults it's rare any of us have any supervision when we work - even the helpers and onlookers seem to quickly dispearse... 3. Last I checked, caricature neatly bridges the gap between fantasy or fiction and reality. And all our railroad will ever be are caricatures of the real thing...a fantasy land kind of what was, but what does not nor ever did exist. But it does make a nice stage. 4. Well, I dunno, what industry is Bachmann, Altas, Walktehrs and Mattel lumped into??? My artifact reproductions certainly aren't meant for 1:1 work [see 1, they won't require any licesning to aquire [see 2] and with how many details get a smashing whallop of horsebeaters rising dust [see 3] I guess that leaves me with one logical end. I don't feel so bad now about putting the hobby down or to the side from time to time to pursue things like life...That's what a hobby is there for, to allow us something of pleasure when we don't have to work! And if you think all our hard work all for a little fun might seem a bit ridiculous, just remember the Roman Colleseum was built as a Stage too...so emperors could play with people like we play with our trains, to act out past events...
It depends on who I'm talking to. I sometimes even refer to my own layout as a toy train set... Again, depending on who I'm around, i.e. non-train people, or fellow model railroaders.
That is a great perspective on what I posted. Just goes to show how various things, even "toy trains" can be interpreted.
I don't think I've ever used the exact phrase "toy train layout" to describe a model. That is, I would never say it was a toy, though there are layouts I would describe as toyish. There is a difference, though the word makes it sound like "toyish" is somehow worse than "toy". I suppose I use the term "toyish" loosely. Some layouts I've thought of that way could better be described as "display-ish". These are the layouts that appear designed to allow multiple trains to run unattended on independent routes. In short, more what you're likely to see at a show or in a hobbyshop window than on a playroom floor.
To diverge a moment, I've always wondered what "he" wins. He's dead and his toys will probably be sold by his family at a garage sale for a fraction of what he paid for them.
It's just that: He wins! No prizes, it's all about playing hte game! See, I gave up this whole debacle ages ago. I have discovered that idiots will be idiots and there is no changing them no matter how hard you argue with them. Teaching apig to sing will likely only frustrate yourself and annoy the pig. In fact, the more scientific or educated you get with your response, the quicker you become the buttend of their jokes. It's as if you give them more fuel for their fire. They ask "So, you play with little trains?" Instead of me going on a half hour tirade of extrolling the fine virtues of my hobby - which I could, but you see, it would be in vain. The whole time I'm talking they're hearing "Toy train toy train omg nerd obcessed with toy trains!" and all of my vigor is simply raw ripe material for their future jokes - either in fornt of me or behind my back. Instead, my answer is short cort "Yep." Basically, I make conversation about this topic with me is so short, vague and nondescriptive that they decide they want to move on to the next conversation topic and nothing memorable happened doing that previous conversation. I DON'T want to talk about my hobby with people who aren't in it. If someone is getting into the hobby, I DON'T want to do it for them. I am not a cheerleader for anybody but myself - though I freely give comments to other modelers about their work. As selfish as that may seem, it merely means those around me pursuing the hobby are in it because they know it is what they want, not because I told them they would like doing it. They might not, afterall! I don't worry about getting other people interested in the hobby because I know this hobby isn't for everybody, and those who want to get involved WILL get involved. I don't worry about getting their kids involved because the last thing I need is to be known as that guy who plays with kids and not people his own age. This world is a lot uglier of a place than you might want to think. My own future kids will get a fair share of their dad's hobby, if they ever come around - but I'm not worried about them pursuing it. They will cut their own way as they live their life as they are free to decide. The end result is, I don't worry about having any ego problems that might result from how people interpret my hobby. I don't have to justify my hobby to anybody, because I am not selling it nor using it to build up my self worth - it's just a part of me. My hobby is not on parade everywhere I go, nor do many know about it. I don't have to stand on a soap box trying to change the motion of the crowd - I already know what it is, and I already know how they feel. I already know they had little sets once when they were kids. or their relative [usually the crazy one] used to have lionel in the basement. Or how they enthusiastically invoke Gomez Adams as the perfect way to expeand run model trains. It doesn't matter where I go, People in general are pretty much the same... And I know where I can find the people who feel about this hobby in a manner similar to my own - they're all down at the club, and there is where I'm HOME! And I'll be honest..for the most part, if you took away the trains and the layout on our side, and the bar and the DJ and the club on their side, even with those things we say we are there for, all we generally do is shoot the breeze! But I dare say it is much more acceptable in this day an age for a late 20's something single guy to hang out with a bunch of old geezer versus hanging out with a bunch of kids. Just a word for the wise...
