My skis and hockey equipment are toys. My bicycles, mountain and road, are toys. My trains are toys. My car, a practical but somewhat boring Saturn Ion, is not a toy. Neither is the chain saw. My computer isn't a toy, but the Flight Sim yoke and pedals are, along with the Digitrax PR2. The pasta maker is a toy, while the pot I cook the pasta in is not. I embrace play as an essential part of a happy life. The things I play with are toys, and I'm happy with that.
Yup they are Toy Trains! First off, those tinplate trains cost a fortune then and now. Secondly, it really is fun to refer to Model trains as toy trains around model railroaders if only for the pleasure of watching some guy's shorts get all bunched up, or to watch a prominent vein appear along another guys temple. tee hee hee Timetables, car cards, operating books... All ways to play with trains.
I got my first home computer back in 1992. My wife would ask me, "So, are you going to play with the computer now?" Boy, did that stick in my craw! This is how I made my living. I was, and still am, a professional computer programmer. Now that I'm older and as wise as she, I know what she meant. I actually was "playing" with the computer. I wasn't writing programs at home. I was PLAYING. Darn her, she's always right... ;-)
I work for a railroad transportation / engineering firm in an historic downtown location. We have what 'used to be' a retail storefront, complete with big glass display windows. A normal firm would just curtain them off and hide. The former owner had a 5x9 HO layout that he decided to put in the vacant window. It wasn't particularly engineered well, but it was an interesting track plan. After a lot of work, and I mean a LOT of work, I got it to run reliably. Put some Mantua GP20's on it and some metal-wheel equipped cars; got two trains running on two loops (an outside oval and and inside folded dogbone). The basic layout is both ballasted and sceniced; its rigged to an outside pushbutton with a 3-minute timer to turn the whole works on - either on or off. It has enough open space in the track for themed seasonal scenery - right now it has snowmen, kids on skates, etc. When easter hits spring comes along with a complete change of foliage. We have a summer carnival that fits on it with all kinds of animation. It is most decidedly a 'toy train layout' and we don't take ourselves the least bit seriously. We have flying saucers on occassion, and a big plastic Godzilla that's wrecked many scenes. One of my favorite scenes was a 'survivor island'... and after the decorator was gone,we put tiny ballots around the tiki poles complete with voting a particularly irritating employee 'off the island'... yeah, that got talked about! You can't peel the kids off the windows. We have to wash the windows about every third day from the fingerprints and the noseprints. 'running the trains' has become a parental reward for all kinds of behaviors from eating vegetables to not beating on your brother. And the view from INSIDE is just priceless, with noses and fingerprints and squeals. Our secretary has learned to tolerate the background noise from the trains, and the kids. I don't really like maintaining it, but its probably the only OPERATING HO trains many kids have seen, the kids reaction is worth whatever grief. The Downtown Merchants Association and local restaurants bring us treats every once in a while just as a 'thank you'. I swear though, if that kind of appreciation ever stops, I'd probably tear it out in a heartbeat just for the maintenance issues. Now I'm a full-prototype, dedicated scratchbuilder type. So when I'm putting plastic snowmen in HO gondolas, it helps to keep things in perspective. 30 four year-olds bouncing off the windows from a preschool class helps that a lot!
To properly address this, one must first examine the nature as to what the miniature trains are like and how they are employed. From its inception, actual model railroading has been defined as an adult craftsman's hobby. It involves the creation of a complete and complex diorama-like presentation in which, while miniature trains might be the focus, they are just a part of the whole. The fabrication of an accepted such presentation requires a host of hobbyist talents, artistic and technical applications, the final results being a close representation of an actual segment of the real world in miniature. The skills necessary to do so separate the creative, artistic, nature of true "model railroading" distinctly from the unsophisticated juvenile approach, which is indeed simply playing with the trains as toys. Whereas the trains involved in "model railroading" are precise scale miniatures of real trains and typically the work of the hobbyist, the railroad "toys" historically used by children have typically been crude, often out-of-scale, store-bought representations, as have been their accessories. Their so-called layouts are a concept derived from the adult hobby long ago and historically have been exceeding crude by comparison, even after adults largely took control of the interest in toy trains more recently. Toys are items of play value employed largely by juveniles. Miniature scale models forming only a part of a detail rich and realistic diorama setting, created by adults, are something quite apart and their final presentation far more closely associated with art than anything else. So, it may be said that the difference between the trains employed by the serious hobbyist and those considered as "toys" in other situations is largely a combination of prototype fidelity and even more, application. I would point out, however, that the disturbing current progression toward all encompassing RTR is shifting the adult hobby ever closer to the juvenile practice of simply "playing with toy trains" and seems to be the case with a significant percentage of today's new hobbyists. NYW&B
NYW&B expressed my philosophy. Despite all my work on my layout, I do still consider it "playing." And the things I buy are toys, no matter how costly or detailed. I take no umbrage when someone remarks that I play with toy choo-choos.
I popped into this thread after reading switchman's thread that prompted it. I think it's useful to make a comment based on the original thread. I think people use the "Toy Train" description to mark a distinction from modern model railroad practice versus common Tinplate design. In that context, I think that a Model Railroad is a layout that is intended to depict some sort of real* prototype as accurately as possible given the constraints of the modeler. A Toy train layout on the other hand ignores reality in favor of riotous visual interest. To further the example, Grain silos next to logging camps next to coal loadouts. They were, in that design packed in so tightly that it made no sense as compared to real life. It didn't even count as selective compression at that point. Spaghetti bowl track plans as well engender this kind of comment In the toy train world, this would not be jarring. Industries are sighted based more on space available and which cool industry I recently bought rather than any rational prototypical arrangement. So I guess to rephrase, a Toy train layout looks completely irrational versus the modern model railroad. And please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to say that one is superior to the other. They are both equally valid options, but I think on a board like Trainboard, we all tend to gravitate toward the more rational prototypical and so we tend to assume everyone else leans that way as well. Broad realistic curves, dominant (relatively) scenery, rational industry and town placement. etc etc etc. That is the distinction that was being drawn deservedly or not. And again, I'm just trying to describe what I see as the reason behind the comments, there is no right or wrong way to do this and we're all still playing with toy trains in the end. As an aside, this is something that has changed over the course of time in Model Railroading. 20-30-40 years ago, Spaghetti bowl track plans were very typical. It wasn't till the 70s that modern Model railroad plans became en vogue. Which also I think influences the comment. It's nostalgia. I think people equate those old styles of track plan with the popular Tinplate that was happening at the same time. I'd also mention that in the original thread you mentioned John Armstrong and Atlas track plans as being "vetted" but many of those old track plans are just not considered to be very good by the community at large in the year 2010. I mean atlas plans especially, you'll see plenty of snide comments about their plans. And again, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the plans if that's what you want. They are just not reflective of the modern common wisdom in model railroad planning. To each their own and all that. * In this case, real doesn't mean a real prototype, but at least a basic attempt to make model railroad reflect the rationalities that drive how real railroads are built.
I always have to laugh and think of Shatner on SNL in 1986, you know when SNL was still funny. The skit of him being questioned by Trekkies and his reply, "It was just a show!" Well it's just a hobby, I "play" with my highly detailed N scale GP30 that took weeks of research and time to detail, paint and decal, the same way I "played" with my Hotwheels cars as a child. I work at a hobby company and many still refer to my trains as "toys", doesn't bother me. My trains do not help me make money, get me to work or put food on the table. They provide me with sanity and a way to relax. As many of you know I work with RC Planes. Years ago, I came to the flying field and witnessed a "serious" RC pilot. He had a 40% to scale Edge 540 with a four cylinder 150cc gas engine, high zoot radio and generally thousands of dollars in this model. I commented on how nice that little toy was and you would have thought I had called him a name. I listened to him explain how this was a scale model, worth over so much money, and that it was not a toy. He went on for a good five minutes. After he was done, I looked at him and said, no it's a toy. Just like my Jeep Wrangler over there that is worth two or more of your planes is. My Jeep with it's lift kit and all the fun stuff is a T-O-Y! Your Harley is a toy, your restored '62 Vette is a toy, your big screen TV is a toy. It always amazes me in any hobby why we can get all wrapped up in a simple term. Does it bug me? No. It used to, but life is too short for me to correct people on wether or not my trains are highly scaled models or toys. Besides as someone has already said, the right people will know the difference when they see your models. Jim
I don't think the term itself is really a problem to most of us, but the way it is used can be. It's a little like the term 'train-spotter' (the UK equivalent of 'railfan') which is nearly always used by non-railfan people like the press in an insulting or derogatory manner. Yes, these things are all toys, but the way some people use that term can make one's hackles rise a bit.
I agree, the people who use the term with an injurious intent, including using inflection, tone, and facial expressions, use the term to get under the skin of those whom they judge. In that sense, they are playing on what they suspect are insecurities, and if they raise our ire, they are proven correct. High fives all around. As I said a long while back, if they are representations of a real 1:1 item in which men actually make a living, that can be amortized and depreciated via a federal tax system, and so on, they are not the real thing. Calling them a toy versus a model is no more an equivocation than preferring model to toy...they are still not a real item used for work. Instead, they are for amusement and pleasure. An oil painting is not a toy. A functioning scale locomotive can be a toy, but it can also be used as a model to image or depict the full scale purposes and looks. To me, when I run my scale trains, I am playing, and people shouldn't play with 1:1 machines. So, we make scale representations and we play with them.
It's all about ego - and some people are still trying to be in that cool club we're never going to be a part of...the same club that enjoys poker and most sporting events and other popular things that go well with lots of people and liberal amounts of liquid courage. Of course, these people see you building something and they automatically say "time machine" or "bomb." They'd rather be out bashing somthing into little pieces or tearing something up... Not a problem for me...my little toys will become an empire.
I am 47 and have had trains on and off since Dad gave me a toy trainset for my 10th birthday. To me a trainset is a toy. When you get serious about it and lay roadbed and make a "permanent" layout you become a model railroader. Funny thing dad called last week and asked what I was up to. I told him I was working on my train layout. He chuckled and didn't say any more. He had no idea what I was actually trying to accomplish and I am sure his mind went to the trainset he gave me when I was 10. He was over to the house this past weekend and he asked where's the toy train you were working on? I took him into my layout area and he looked confused. I showed him the roadbed I had pinned and glued. I explained that this was not toy stuff and then showed him my DCC locos and what the could do on a single piece of flex track. He now understands the model vs toy aspect of it. I also had just attended our local railroad show over the weekend and when I ran into someone from work I was a little embarrassed that I was a model railroader at heart. Then she explained that her husband and son were having a good time and were off dreaming about their future RR. She also proved to be very knowledgeable about the hobby. I guess I am just too sensitive to the toy aspect.
