I've had time off and have been modeling as of late. I made an N scale layout for my 5 year old for christmas. Because of this I have been in hobby stores once again. Here is the thing. I know there have been many threads about how hobby shops don't get it, and all that. I think it is bigger than all that. As I left a shop, I was thinking, they can not afford to stock everything. We live in a day and age where we have so many choices, and because of that, and the internet we are very wise, selective, and savy with our money. Personally, I don't think any hobby shops can make it. At least the brick and mortor type. Obvioulsy I model Z and there is a hobby shop just down the road, but they don't stock any Z because no one besides me really buys Z...and of course there is the always standard...we can order it...just keep it...I mean really. As z scalers we know all the internet sites and we know all the releases. Usually way before any store for sure. If I really wanted somthing that bad and needed to order it, it would have been done. In my opinion hobby stores are impulse buy centers because you can see it, run it and touch it, if I wanted to buy it without seeing it, why go to a hobby store in the first place? It is almost embarassing for a shop owner who knows nothing of Z to talk about it like they have a clue. What am I getting at...well, there are so many choices and specialties, no hobby shop can stay on top of it. It is like hobby shops are 6 months or a year behind the curve. Economics are funny, but I just don't think a local hobby store can make it unless they have a large internet shop as well and are willing to stock everything...and I mean everything. Maybe a hardware store with a hobby selection could make it...but a pure hobby store? I dout it. We all know there are about 3 big vendors in Z to shop at, and a few more in N on line. I'd would love to be able to browse the inventory those internet shops have! Here is the thing, last year I purchased a GG1 and a GS4 in N scale because a shop had it in stock! I saw them, held them, and ran them. That is why I purchased them! If not for that, I would have never internet ordered them. So the shops that can afford to stock will work...unless you are on-line or a secondary business you can't do it. I was at a hobby shop in Indy a few months back, all they had was the CSX sd-40 in Z...not bad, except my money was on the union pacific. If they had the right road name, they'd have a sale, but they had little to nothing else...bye bye... Bottom line, money is tight, the economy and hobby is in transition. I think we just need to be ready for the adjustment. I think hobby stores are a thing of the past. I envision everthing being internet related, with about a dozen mega stores in the country. There will be smaller branch stores that survive because they are part of another business. Kinda sad but with the quality and price of the items in the hobby today, I can't see it being any other way.
As you wrote this one of my LHS folded today. Today was "it". He didn't stock much N and no Z, but he was a true HO modeler's store. In HO he had "it", anything. Lots of scratch building materials, DCC ~~ and he put on clinics every Saturday. All gone a few hours ago. ...don
I still remember the mega shops in San Francisco and LA I would frequent and miss being able to go one place and actually touch the stuff. My local shop is pretty good (Al's Hobby in Medford) and they have a good selection of N...no z...but that's not a problem ) Anyway, I can't expect them to have everything, but I do all my buying through them and avoid on line except for books. I think I't important to support the Lhs as much as possible and the few bucks I may save on line is usually gobbled up with shipping and handling. Lots of dealers use it as a profit center and overcharge significantly and I don't have much patience for that. Besides I get to go someplace after work and hang out in a hobby shop and decompress a bit, and that's worth a few extra bucks on my purchase. Joe MTL
Yeah Joe, but Bret from Al's told me he is tired of you coming in and looking at stuff and drooling all over the counter at the things you can't afford but want.....)
yes, I agree with most all. I rarely visit the shop except for the scratch stuff or paint, even though they do carry Z. I've picked up a few things in Z. mostly because I had not remembered or now do need it. For me, the LHS carries the things I cannot easily get thru the mail/UPS (e.g. the paint or long bulky items like flex, wood strips, etc.) but I often find stuff I have not seen in a catalog or magazine (I don't read N or others so maybe they don't advertize in MRR or RMC "general purpose" mags). There are the books for sure and scenery materials but I do enjoy the rotating consignment stock in the glass display gas, only to dream that we will one day have that in Z Joe, I can understand your local purchases - Oregon does not charge Sales Tax. That's a roughly 8% trade for shipping or $8 per $100 spent or equal to shipping for most of us. Click or drive 20 miles. Hmmmm. .
Agree with you all. Modeling US Z-scale and living in Europe is even more challenging. Over here we see the same development with LHS, but when you want US rolling stock in any scale from a hobby store, it is even worse, you will have to travel... I only buy the scenery materials and scratch building materials in the LHS. Without mail ordering and internet this hobby was impossible for me. Besides the dissapering of hobby shops, the people I met over there have most time gray hare.... Luckily there are still train shows where one can see and buy. Seeing is impulsive buying. I was in z-scale for quit some years, when I saw the UP MTL GP35 at a LHS in the USA. The MTL were second to none compared to the Märklin US rolling stock I have seen sometimes in a LHS (I only like the GG1 and passenger cars from Märklin). From that day, I am modeling US Z-scale. ...but even when modeling European style it becomes more difficult without internet over here as well.
I´m a lucky guy, as there are 2 model railroad shops within 10 minutes walking distance from my home, and both carry Z scale. Of course, Märklin, Kibri, Faller and Vollmer only. But their inventory gets constantly smaller, because of Internet and Märklins politics don´t make it better either. Like Frank said, for US stuff there are a handful of online dealers or you directly buy in the States. I remember a nice train shop in San francisco (Van Ness Ave?) where I bought my first MTL Boxcars in the late 80´s. Whereever I go, I look for Train shops, and if they don´t carry Z scale, just for the fun of looking at the stuff. Mattias
I also consider myself of one the lucky guys. I have two well stocked z scale hobby shops in my area. One is about 15 minutes and the other is about 25 minutes drive from me. When my friends Ellen and Thom came to visit me, they drop couple grands there. They said they have never such a well stock z scale hobby shop, and they travel all over the places to go to shows. I normally buy most of my stuff over the net, but I do buy at my hobby shop when something catches my eye. I also buy things that you cant get over the net anymore like another CSX SD40. I also bough five F7s for my friends from other places. They still had them back then. For my scenic supplies, I get it all from my hobby shop. Inspiration cannot wait for the trees and grass to be shipped.
There is really only one solution.. We have to convert everyone to Z Scale! Then hobby shops would only have to carry Z stuff, and all scenery materials and detail supplies would be geared towards Z too. My local hobby shop actually had a couple Z Scale Marklin items in a glass case for several years before someone bought it. Mostly it's well stocked for scenery, paint, and scratch building supplies, and has some magazines and the N and Z catalog. I have an idea that might help though... I was thinking that Hobby Shop suppliers like Walthers, MTL, and maybe others could put together a traveling Z Scale display package that they sponsor at one of their higher volume hobby shop customers for a year or so. Then they would move the display to another LHS for the next year. The LHS obligations would be to agree to make available say 20 linear feet of space for the program, and only order restock for items sold, so the displays would always be fully stocked. The LHS would not have to purchase any of the items, or pay for the display cases, instead the manufacturers would contribute to the cost of the display based upon their percentage of display usage of the program. With say 20 linear feet of isle space devoted to the scale, set say 3, or 6 feet of horizontally rotating glass case with locos and cars in it (to safely prevent shrinkage). These have about 16 shelves that hold 3 or 4 rows of 3 feet of cars, and are stocked with mostly North American style models. Have shelves above this display for larger plastic kits, selected for their usefulness towards North American style modeling like the Marklin brick factory kits or steel mill kits. Next you have several feet of glass case (to prevent shrinkage) shelves holding track pieces, people and animal assortments, automobiles and construction equipment, and the more expensive details like that. Then you have peg hooks and shelves for laser kits, etched brass kits, resin kits, and stuff that's less likely to get stolen. Finally there would be a bin like you find in hotel lobbies showing tri-fold brochures of all the local attractions, but it would be full of tri-folds from all the cottage industry of Z. Here you would have product flyers from the likes of MTL, Ztrack Center, Nansen Street Models, Stonebridge Models, BLMA, Fox Valley, Intermountian, Marklin, Miller Engineering, Micron Art, Monroe Models, Randy Brown Z, RSlaser, Full Throttle, and everyone else not listed. These people would contribute something small, like maybe $100 per year to participate. Their brochures would focus only on their Z Scale items, and include contact info so the customer would be able to locate items in the brochures. The goal here would be to show that there is so much more available to the scale than can be made available at just one hobby shop. At the end of a year, the hobby shop could elect to either return the display, or have decided to purchase it based off any profits. Maybe they decide to just keep 4 feet of Z Scale available, but at the end of a year, there would be a lot more Z Scalers frequenting that hobby shop. Within 10 years time, I would think a program like this could double or triple Z Scale annual sales.
Yes, the brick and mortar local hobby shops may be a thing of the past. Today's economics with sky-high costs have made it difficult for stores to survive, let alone make a profit. In trains,London Bridge sells only Z Scale. To do otherwise would be out of the question. Still, the LHS is needed for reasons mentioned. Best wishes to everyone for a happy new year. Ron:tb-biggrin:
There are at least 3 LHS near me that stock Z. So, I'm pretty lucky that way. They all have a pretty good assortment of stuff, with one of them also stocking lights, signals, catenary, etc. It's not that surprising that Z is fairly popular in NYC, given the size of the apartments and the number of European ex-pats. But, there are no Z clubs that I know of, not even a mixed club with Z track.
Put up a notice for other Z scalers at these stores to look at, um.... this forum? Someone else must come into those stores to buy the Z stuff.
Robert - Great idea, but there are a few problems. As you know I've been at all of the NMRA annual shows since 2005. I've had some serious discussions with Walthers personnel and their basic reaction has been "forget it". I am aware of other contacts and due to confidentiality I can't say more than they pretty much got the same "buzz off" attitude. In Milwaukee this year the Kalmbach booth was two aisles away from Mr Dave's Big Z Layout. I could not for the life of me get Cody Grivno to take just a few minutes to come over and take a look. OTOH one of Cody's long time buddies did come by but even he could not get Cody to take a few minutes. As many of you know at the Detroit NMRA a couple of years ago we were able to get Neil Besougloff and Andy Sperandeo come over and spend about 25 minutes with us. We blew it and never submitted a story to Model RR to get published. Rob Albritten apparently did and got a nice writeup. As long as Z is "small potatoes" sales-wise it is going to be difficult to get recognized in the model train arena. Model RR News has published some nice articles, but only one horn is not enough. I like you started in N, but I did it long before you [I'm a LOT older]. N started very slowly. Z, in my opinion, is growing at a much faster rate than N when N was new out of the box. The Internet, lasers, and things like DCC have made the big difference for the recent growth. We need a Z organization, with some full time personnel if you want to move faster. I'm not sure how to get the LHS into the program as they need sales ~~ which now are at the chicken-egg situation. ...my dime's worth. ...don Well, after I wrote the above, I opened the Feb 2011 Model RR. Page 16 has a nifty color photo and description of MTL's Z Scale Fish Market, under News & Products. Covers about 1/4 of the page.
Robert, That is come creative thinking on your part, (when is your thinking never creative?) Might be hard to empliment initially, but I think your idea has merrit. SBM would certainly be a contributor.
I like Robert's idea - but maybe be easier to do at some Train shows. I suspect that some shows the cost and / or room wouldn't be do-able, but it's a place that gets more eyes than a particular LHS. I saw RSLaser's Rich at the Pomona show, one of the few shows I saw *any* Z products available. Way to go Rich. I also think that the Z-Bend groups could further their causes by having a knock-down "module in a box" that a newbie could buy. Hint, hint BazBoys and ZoCal. -James
Quite possible, I really didn't look that hard. Just got out of another hobby for various reasons including having to deal with club politics, etc. Might have to travel a bit to find one as land too expensive here to set up a decent club layout.
for me ... ease of shopping for me ... the catch is the 'ease of selection' and the 'efficiency of shopping'. there's some really great web retailers out there whose web sites are a pleasure to browse and shop. i like being able to see everything available. not surprisingly, these sites are micro-trains number one n and z dealers. NOT all web retailers get this however. i don't think these second tier web-retailers will be around much longer either. i don't even bother going to websites that have all text and take tons of clicking just to see one thing. which brings me to the store experience. i love going to a real store. i would happy to spend all my money there. yes... the slight markup is worth it. but what i don't like is having to ask the guy at my LHS to take out all the cases of n and z and then stand over me observing my every move and making stupid suggestions. it's not a pleasant way to shop. these retailers don't understand that the way we shop today, is VERY different than the way we shopped even 5 years ago. we are very informed, and we want access. no... you can't stock everything, but in a tiny-house city like san francisco, focusing on n&z could get you pretty far. ditch the G,O,HO. only carry the mid and higher end N scale. carry north american z. that shouldn't be too hard? people like great selection and price, but they also like to experience something for real. i don't think that the brick and mortar stores are an outdated concept. i DO think that most of the people doing it, are doing it wrong. but what do i know ... i'm just some guy with a few $$$ to burn on trains....
Happy New Year everyone! I, too, count myself in as one of the lucky ones. There are two LHS's in my area that carry Z, plus a warehouse distributor that carries all scales. One LHS is a much more enthusiastic supporter of Z, and they carry a variety of Z items. A big advantage I have with them is that they will order items for me if I desire, and they pick them up on their twice-weekly run to the border to receive the rest of their store orders. Better yet, the mark-up is minimal. It's even better with the $CDN near parity! Still, LHS's are disappearing. Another closed last year, leaving roughly 8-10 left in an area with a population of over 2 million. I think we all know that running an LHS is never going to make anyone a millionaire, and with today's real estate market (at least in this corner of the world) it makes it virtually impossible to earn a living with all the associated overhead. Kudos to those make a go of it, as it truly is a labor [or labour, if you will ] of love.
Happy new year I've been a long time lurker here, but a recent interest in Z has brought me out, so to speak. Having moved from New England to New Mexico, I really felt the loss of a LHS. I have a hard time getting motivated at times without that interaction. And for those of you that have quilters for significant others, have a look at a quilt shop some time. That is a hobby and a business that is thriving in this exact same economy. Maybe the idea of buying cloth online is harder. Maybe quilting is just different. But nevertheless, quilt shops are destinations like good train shops used to be. That said, I think the modern replacement for a chat over the counter at a hobby shop is a place like this. One advantage of Z is that many of the business leaders are actually here, on this forum. For better or worse they get direct feedback from real customers. That has to be better (especially for a small enterprise) than trying to get some pegboard space at a few shops. And while I would love a local shop for clinics and information, I find the tutorials like ztrains.com to be some of the most useful I've ever come across. And I think the modern replacement for the LHS experience has to be a local club. As much as I don't think of myself as a "joiner", I do know we have a good club here and I should join. Just my New Year's view, Bob
