How many have live steam G?

LordPyro Sep 2, 2010

  1. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Thanx for that link, I always like to learn new things. I try not to think of G scale in a national sense, but it's always hard for me to think of G in a global sense and then links like this put things in a global perspective to me. With that said, I never seen that terminolgy like this used before > ( II IIm) and never knew that it existed. As far as Accucraft models, yes the wheel sets are deep over flanged for those who want more reliability and the trucks are not always correct. But both are easy fixes for those diehard enthusiats that want everything correct. Gary Raymond is one example of a manufacturer that makes correct wheels sets and wheel sets with offset hubs and correct profile.

    Here is the link to Gary Raymond wheel sets, maybe you may find this interesting > http://www.audiomobiles.com/trains/pricelist.html
     
  2. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Oh my God Trainman!
    What did you do !!!!!
    :tb-biggrin::tb-biggrin::tb-biggrin:

    Did you realize that Gary still has the old Large Scale NMRA designations on his price list - the ones people got upset about and rightly so
    Talk about an alphabet soup - Mn2, Fn3, Fn1.5, Gnm, Hn 3 1/2, A, #1, #1n3
    :tb-biggrin:
    and back on the "model" discussion - yes, of course you can modify locos and cars to make them more "model" like, that applies to all of them, but if you use wheels with prototypically scaled flanges you won't be able to run them on a Garden layout - that was my whole point.
     
  3. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Question:
    Did you realize that Gary still has the old Large Scale NMRA designations on his price list - the ones people got upset about and rightly so
    Talk about an alphabet soup - Mn2, Fn3, Fn1.5, Gnm, Hn 3 1/2, A, #1, #1n3

    Answer:
    Yep, but felt as though it was still ok to post a link there just for the info on the wheel sets and yes those designations is like alphabet soup and so confusing and really a bunch of non-sense. I like the idea of rating everything in G scale by the scale ratio which alot of G manufacturers are doing on thier own. USA Trains and Aristo were the first to do so.

    Note: Hopefully I did not add any fuel to the fire about the NMRA in the G section with that link or bring back bad memories.

    quote: and back on the "model" discussion - yes, of course you can modify locos and cars to make them more "model" like, that applies to all of them, but if you use wheels with prototypically scaled flanges you won't be able to run them on a Garden layout - that was my whole point

    my response: As Homer Simpson would say...Doah. Now I get it, sometimes things have to be explained out to me for me to understand. So yes on that point I agree with that and you would need to run more precision trains inside.
     
  4. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Trainman -
    I think the smilies on this board need a face lift - they don't seem to get the message across.
    I wasn't objecting to you posting the link to Gary's wheels, in fact I'm glad you did because Gary sent me a paper copy of his price list which I was going to scan and put on my computer since paper always gets lost - he never told me that he had set up a web site again and with that web site now, I don't have to go to the hassle of scanning, the site is already downloaded on my computer.

    I just thought it was funny that we just talked about these NMRA scale/gauge designation, I was trying to remember what they all were, and then - boom- out of the blue they popped up when I opened Gary's web site.
    That was just too funny for words.

    You should know by now that I don't take the hobby too seriously, accurate, correct = yes, but not seriously as in collector maybe - I'm in it for fun.

    As far as Aristo and USA Trains displaying actual scale and gauge - they really don't have a choice, do they. There is no model railroad designator for those trains and never will be since scale and gauge don't match any prototype.
     
  5. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    krs, great....... glad I could help out.

    I don't think however alot of G scalers on here will like the NMRA designations on Gary Raymonds site. Remember everyone. Gary Raymond only put on his site what the NMRA had made up, please don't say any negatives about him.

    As far as USA Trains and Aristocraft having no choice but to label thier trains in the scale ratio, you are right since the NMRA didn't recognize that scale ratio enough to give it a designation.

    But it would have been sooooo much easier if all "Large Scale" (< Being politically correct here) manufacturers would just go by the scale ratio instead of that cocamainy ridiculous alphabet soup designation that the NMRA came up with.
     
  6. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Two comments trainman, three actually..........

    1. With the "alphabet soup" NMRA actually did recognize 1/29 scale on 45mm track (USA Trains and Aristocraft mainly) and assigned the scale designator "A" to that scale/gauge combination. They were covered in a more logical manner than some of the others - I reaaly 'love' the Gnm designator.

    2. All Large Scale manufacturers showing the actual scale ration would be a problem for many. USA Trains and Aristocraft (maybe Bachmann) are the only ones that actually stick close to a scale ratio.
    For LGB, not only does the scale ratio vary from product to product, some narrow gauge items are about 1:19, others 1: 22.5, still others 1:24, then their standard gauge equipment is typically 1:26, but the scale also varies within the product - length, width and height are often somewhat different scales. Not that LGB can't build a scale model, the prototype model was always built to scale and then Wolfgang and later Rolf Richter would tell the designers what to modify to make the model look more attractive. There was a nice article about that in one of the early LGB depesche magazines.
    Piko would also have problems showing a specific scale ratio. Their standard gauge equipment is typically 1:27 scale except for the cars they offer that are made using old MRC molds - those cars are of course 1:32 scale.
    Then they are just bringing out the "Harzkamel" - that huge diesel loco used by the Harz railway where a standard gauge diesel was equipped with meter gauge bogies since buying new locos for the harz railroad was too expensive at the time.
    This engine existed as a Meter gauge engine and a standard gauge engine.
    Piko will be offering both, but guess what, the basic body is exactly the same even though the meter gauge engine on 45mm track should be in 1:22.5 scale and the standard gauge in 1:32 scale (or at least 1:29 if you use the USAT/Aristo standard).
    Actual scale I think was calculated to be around 1:25 or 1:26 scale, so too small for true narrow gauge and too large for true standard gauge.
    But from a cost point of view, two different molds just weren't feasible - the production quantities are just too low to justify that.
    Piko will obviously provide the correct livery for each type of engine, the "narrow" gauge ones will use two three-axle bogies, the "standard" gauge ones two-axle bogies and the scale - well it is what it is.

    Accessory manufacturers for Large Scale have the same problem. There is just not a large enough market to make the same accessory in all the different scales that cover Large Scale, so they prefer to market their products as Large Scale, not as 1:xx scale.
     
  7. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Two comments trainman, three actually..........

    1. With the "alphabet soup" NMRA actually did recognize 1/29 scale on 45mm track (USA Trains and Aristocraft mainly) and assigned the scale designator "A" to that scale/gauge combination. They were covered in a more logical manner than some of the others - I reaaly 'love' the Gnm designator.

    2. All Large Scale manufacturers showing the actual scale ration would be a problem for many. USA Trains and Aristocraft (maybe Bachmann) are the only ones that actually stick close to a scale ratio.
    For LGB, not only does the scale ratio vary from product to product, some narrow gauge items are about 1:19, others 1: 22.5, still others 1:24, then their standard gauge equipment is typically 1:26, but the scale also varies within the product - length, width and height are often somewhat different scales. Not that LGB can't build a scale model, the prototype model was always built to scale and then Wolfgang and later Rolf Richter would tell the designers what to modify to make the model look more attractive. There was a nice article about that in one of the early LGB depesche magazines.
    Piko would also have problems showing a specific scale ratio. Their standard gauge equipment is typically 1:27 scale except for the cars they offer that are made using old MRC molds - those cars are of course 1:32 scale.
    Then they are just bringing out the "Harzkamel" - that huge diesel loco used by the Harz railway where a standard gauge diesel was equipped with meter gauge bogies since buying new locos for the harz railroad was too expensive at the time.
    This engine existed as a Meter gauge engine and a standard gauge engine.
    Piko will be offering both, but guess what, the basic body is exactly the same even though the meter gauge engine on 45mm track should be in 1:22.5 scale and the standard gauge in 1:32 scale (or at least 1:29 if you use the USAT/Aristo standard).
    Actual scale I think was calculated to be around 1:25 or 1:26 scale, so too small for true narrow gauge and too large for true standard gauge.
    But from a cost point of view, two different molds just weren't feasible - the production quantities are just too low to justify that.
    Piko will obviously provide the correct livery for each type of engine, the "narrow" gauge ones will use two three-axle bogies, the "standard" gauge ones two-axle bogies and the scale - well it is what it is.

    Accessory manufacturers for Large Scale have the same problem. There is just not a large enough market to make the same accessory in all the different scales that cover Large Scale, so they prefer to market their products as Large Scale, not as 1:xx scale.

    Getting rather off topic here - sorry.

    I don't have any steam locos and personally don't want any.
    Sat in on a seminar once where they covered steam in great detail and at every club meet, the live steamers in the group of course run their live-steam trains, so I do get exposure to them - it's just not my thing.
    We have about 160 club members, there are 10 to 12 live steamers - gives an idea of the ratio.
     
  8. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Yeah, I can see what you mean about LGB, it did seem thy could not stick to one scale ratio, they were definately all over the place as far as scale ratio.

    Again, I"m thinking G scale only as a national basis. Don't hate me for saying this, but I'm a real old fashioned typical American, but I hate the metric system. However I do realize the rest of the globe uses it. It's funny how LGB and Piko uses the metric system for measuresments and then you have USA Trains that uses inches for measurements but runs on a track that uses the metric system to measure it. So when you say meter gauge I don't understand that system. The same with the site you listed which has alot of metric dimensions used for the II and IIm in which I have no idea what those 2 designations mean either. On the subject as a whole on the metric system, that is for another time as today Americans still do not accept it.

    I didn't realize Piko bought the old MDC molds.

    I see what you mean if everything was scale specific, there would be a need for accessories to be made in each specific scale. I can see the expense there, so yeah "Large Scale" designation would cover that, but for a rivet counter in may not. You know thinking about the G scale vs Large Scale proper terminology and being polictically correct............ The big show in York PA is called the East Coast Large Scale and Not the East Coast G scale train show. So yeah, I now see the trend of getting away from calling garden railroad trains "G scale" and just call them "Large Scale". Besides what do people think when you say you have G scale trains???? Automatically they think about those battery operated New Brite trains you would give to a kid. Ok so now I can differentiate between saying "G" and "Large Scale". Before this dicussion it would be one in the same, but realize in reality it's not.

    There is a very small niche for live steam in "Large Scale" , I think it is neat and if I had enough money I think I would like to try it, although there seems to be alot of maintenance. I even heard of live steam in O scale.

    In my own opinion, the NMRA can take that "A" desigantion for 1:29 scale ratio and ................ (use your imagination). I'm sure that USA Trains and Aristocraft will continue and stick to stamping boxes with the scale ratio rather than the letter A on the box. Hartland Locomotive Works and MTH also stick to one scale ratio. Aristocraft and USA Trains use only 2 different scale ratios.

    Don't hold me to this, I don't have enough info to be 100% sure, but I think the only "Large Scale" manufacturers who didn't stick to 2 or less scale ratios are LGB and Piko. Accucraft now has 3, the AML which is 1:29, AMS which is 1:20.3 and AM which is 1:32. But now thinking about this scale ratio mess that confuses the "Large Scale" community is partly due to LGB really. If you take USA Trains, Aristocraft and Accucraft, although they made different scale ratio trains, each manufacturer made a seperate category for each scale ratio where as LGB made scale ratios all over the place and they never really sepearted them or made seperate divisions for each one. Imagine if there was not a American Series and Ultimates Series in the USA Trains line up how confused we would all be if they just ran production and never seperated any of the scale ratios. The same with Arisotcraft and the Delton series, Accucraft with the AML and AMS line up.

    Anyway, back onto the main subject, you have convinced me to use the terminology "Large Scale" now, it does make more sense to do that, especially since shows and Magazines are doing the same.
     
  9. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    We in Canada went from imperial (that's what the inch/foot/pound system is called) to metric about 50 yrears ago I think, but then stopped half way.
    So distances are measured in kilometers rather than miles, but we still have a 4x8 foot sheet of plywood. Similarly for weights, officially in kilograms but often displayed in pounds as well - an item priced at 2.17 per kilogram sounds like a lot more expensive than 99 cents a pound even though the price is the same.
    Metric is actually a lot easier than imperial when it comes to calculations; most people can multiply and divide by 10, 100, 1000 etc in their head.

    But for us it really makes no difference if you think metric or imperial. The scale ratio is just that, a ratio, no dimensions attached.
    I have seen 45mm track gauge also described as 1.75-inch gauge although they are not exactly the same.
    Standard prototype gauge is 4' 8 1/2 inches in imperial and 1435mm in metric, an odd dimension in either system.
    Think of a meter as roughly equal to a yard or 3 feet, an inch as roughly 2 1/2 centimeters.

    I actually see people run both in the same train and they are perfectly happy doing that.
    Isn't the American series models of narrow gauge equipment and the Ultimate series models of standard gauge equipment?
    As such, the size of the cars and locos in their respective scales (1:24 and 1:29) are essentially the same and look good together. That's after all the way 1:29 scale came into being in the first place.
     
  10. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Oh there is nothing wrong with running both 1:24 and 1:29 scale together on a layout. I just meant that USA Trains keeps the scale ratio trains seperate so you know what you are getting.

    Both USA Trains and Aristocraft do use 1:24 scale ratio as a narrow gauge and 1:29 scale ratio as a maniline gauge. If you run a 1:24 scale ratio American series simulated steel box car next to a 1:29 scale ratio Ultimate series 40ft box car, you definately can tell the difference, so I personally don't run them together, but each to thier own. I keep all of my American series (1:24) together but seperate from my Ultimate series (1:29). So I don't mix 1:24 with 1:29 in the same train any more, I use to but stopped because I didn't think it looked right. Also on another note, oddly enough Aristocraft and Hartland Locomotive works are the only ones to offer 1:24 scale ratio locomotives, USA Trains does not produce 1:24 scale ratio locos to go with their American series rolling stock.
     

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