HO scaler here. I'm just getting back into the hobby after an unintended long break after we sold our home in 2007. I'm excited to finally start a new layout in our current home but space is real tight compared to the entire basement I had last time. Although I have a large investment in HO scale locomotives, rolling stock, buildings, trees, etc., I was seriously considering making a parallel migration to N scale (I say parallel because my club layout is HO scale and I'd likely hold on to some of my HO gear). So I walked into the hobby shop 2 weeks ago unrealistically expecting prices were about the same as when I put the hobby on pause. I also had some crazy idea N scale price points would come in moderately to significantly lower than HO scale. I was quite wrong. I was in the store for probably an hour. The plan was to make a serious N scale evaluation. After scratching my chin, I've came to a few conclusions. 1) Sticker shock. Accumulating anywhere near the amount of locos and rolling stock in N that I have in HO would be a much bigger spend than I anticipated. 2) Considering the compromises, it's probably best to stick with what I have in HO scale and adjust layout expectations accordingly. This means better design as well. 3) As I've started to unbox my HO scale trains the last few weeks, I'm quickly becoming sentimental over them. I mentioned in a previous thread many of my trains have background stories. In the end I think it'd be hard to let go of them. I've become attached to them. 4) All of that aside, I'm still jealous of twice the layout N scale has to offer in the same space.
So I guess at this point I will that '10' year olds dilemma. When I was 10... my parents would occasionally buy me one or two pieces of rolling stock at the Toy r Us (yes they existed in 1967). I got to chose those $0.79 to $0.99 HO cars. I had no money... so that was my 'allowance'... for going to school and behaving well. Eventually as I had other interests they funded (Jr bowling league)... I had to get creative. I would save $1.00 of lunch money per week... and eventually could buy my own stuff. Today's kids would have to be getting lunch money equivalent fancy eateries to buy rolling stock. Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk
I''ve been in the hobby since the mid eighties. I've heard the same old complaints about escalating prices ever since. But here's a newsflash. I bought my first new car in 1970, a yer end clearance Datsun 510. It cost $2000. Brand new, less than 200 miles. Can you now buy a decent new car for $2000 today? When I got that, gas was around 65 cents. I think this is the results of work of bastards like the ones that took the cents sign off keyboards, but I undersstand that this is the work of Father Time. Learn to live with it for a happy life. Am I happy ? I must say that whatever I buy now is better than what I bought in the eighties, and for that I'm happy, but I'll also admit that I would be even happier if I got BLMA quality cars at Trainman prices, but I'm a realist.
I was a kid back when I got that set - from "Santa" - so Mom and Dad were footing the bill, at that time. Extra cars and accessories came along as future holiday and and birthday presents, or were acquired using money from gifts or allowance. Many of today's 10-12 year olds are carrying smart phones that cost well over $160 bucks. How many of them do you think bought those phones (plus a service plan) out of their own pocket?
If mom and dad foot the bill like they do for cell phones. GREAT!! But even a bachman set is just as expensive. My first set was from ma and pa. But that tyco engine did not last. I got the next set (a bachman) for less than 30 bucks in the 80's.. And both were HO. I understand inflation. But this hobbies inflation is not normal inflation. It's controlled by demands and demand. My kids will have the bug in later years. But they may not get a chance if only the wealthy can afford it. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Railroading of any scale has never been a hobby that a child could enter unaided. Virtually everyone that has memories of trains during the holidays or birthdays were ones that Mom and Pop, or an Aunt and Uncle paid for. I certainly could never have entered model railroading without an Uncle giving me a bunch of his HO stuff. And this was the 60's and 70's. So trying to measure the cost of the hobby by how much a kid could purchase today is ridiculous. None of the kids I knew 40-50 years ago could have ever entered the hobby back then even if they wanted to. This has always been an expensive hobby and will continue to be so.
Totally agree this isn't a set out on your own as a kid type hobby. I got into N Scale after I got my bachelor's degree, there was no way I could afford it during grade school or college. The best I could do back then was read MR, which the subscription was a birthday gift, and play with the Lionels my dad and uncle got for me for Christmas over the years around the tree. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
LMAO Now that's funny! Truly a train from nowhere to nowhere. The future will eventually bring the need for high speed trains into reality. I'd rather see this privately funded as opposed to my tax dollar...what little I actually pay these days. The roads in California are in terrible shape and Cal Trans is not keeping up with repairs. So anyways a train isn't going to be the answer between Fresno and Bakersfield. Maybe Sacramento and Oakland with a branch over to San Francisco. In the San Joaquin Valley, They all ready have several Amtrak trains running daily and ridership isn't the greatest. This could be put off or on hold until fully funded for a San Francisco to LA train can be built. Oop's I just went political.
That was my original point when 'I' was a 10 year old. But... we've been beating around the 'real' bush... and practically chopping it down. It's not the kids that are the focus... it's the kids parents or other relatives who are finding the hobby too expensive and making other choices because of the 'bang for the buck' cost involved. The model train era has been usurped by the video game and other less expensive alternative hobbies. I mentioned the new craze of Drones because the LHS' have begun to give up space, once used to stock shelves with model trains and accessories, to the more consumer requested items like Drones. The kids are going to ask for what the other kids are getting... and most are not getting model trains. The parents or other relatives will look at the 'trendy' stuff and compare prices and the whims of the related child to make their choice. Model trains are losing out to the competition for the limited dollars available for the different hobby choices available. As the trend continues swing away from model trains to other hobbies, the manufacturers will continue to make fewer and fewer models which will become increasingly expensive. This is one of the reason that O scale is presently so expensive... they only have about a 5% market share (within model railroading). At one time O scale were the only game in town... and their products were trendy and accessible to all who could afford a hobby. Their products are now only in the realm of the wealthy... and availability is scarce for new products... pricing is crazy high too.
I'm not so sure "too expensive" is the problem when parents and kids are deciding what "kid hobbies" to fund... have you priced a video game system lately? You could build a pretty decent starter layout in any scale with the money my son has sunk in his PlayStation 4 and game collection... and it's pretty modest compared to most of his friends. At the same time, think about how many of your non MRR friends think the hobby is "too expensive" but who own boats, or sink thousands of dollars into drones, or greens fees at the country club. "Too expensive" is largely a polite excuse for "not interesting to me", I think. THAT IS NOT TO SAY of course, that things are indeed expensive in this hobby and there are many of us who struggle with tight hobby budgets. But there are plenty of folks out there who will use "too expensive" as an excuse, while spending the same or considerably more on something more interesting to themselves. Thinking about my son, his interest is directed largely towards things he can do collaboratively with his friends... which at the moment means hanging out at each other's houses or online playing the games. It's not about the expense. We've somehow lost the mindshare. If (somehow) a significant number of his friends were into model railroading I bet they'd be just as happy hanging around a layout building stuff and running trains as they are playing the video games. These are the same kids, BTW, who spent a considerable amount of time building a trebuchet and who are constantly drawing up plans for things like marshmallow gatling guns, or creating their own role-playing games even. I wonder though if we went back to 1960 and looked at the market share of model railroads amongst teenagers just how different it really would look from today. Does anybody have any real statistics?
I doubt there are any statistics we could use. Back then we had a few other things to do. There were erector sets, slot cars, science sets. I remember many kids building plastic car, plane and ship kits. In the Spring we flew kites and brought out the balsa gliders in many sizes. Bicycled everywhere. We were allowed to use our imaginations and were active outdoors a lot. (Whereas kids today are too often sitting on their rears, which is the real cause of weight problems, not what they are eating- We had plenty of junk food back then, too!) There were more kids interested in electrical pursuits such as building kits and ham radio. I got out and WORKED to make money to support my Lionel train fascination. I did not sit around awaiting Christmas, birthdays, etc. Before reaching double digit age I had been pumping gas at the local garage, aside from the usual lawn and yard stuff. And I was also creative in other ways. All through until graduating high school I would be asking around or advertising for classmate's unused trains, and it worked. You want it bad enough, you get up, go out and go after it. You don't just rely on your parents to put it into your hands.
Today, the minimum legal age to work in most occupations and locations is set at 14. There are a few exceptions for jobs such as newspaper delivery or golf caddying. Have a look at the various regulations, which vary from state to state here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_working_age#North_America (scroll down to 'United States' and then expand the federal and state laws by clicking on the '[show]' links.
Having been an employer, I am aware of the child labor laws. All I am saying is if kids want it bad enough, they can be creative. Nobody can stop them from doing odd jobs, washing cars, shoveling snow, mowing and raking lawns, etc, etc. This would also help with building a work ethic which far too many do not have today.
I don't have any statistics either, but the whole "the next generation is going to h*** in a handbasket thing" is so generational it's practically a joke, so my hunch is that back in the day there were just as many kids more interested in <insert pre-video-game activity> than trains as there are today... That's just the thing. I don't think money is the problem, or at least not the reason why kids aren't into model trains... their spending habits belie that idea. Regardless of whether they're earning it themselves (which they should, and my kids do), or whether it's being handed to them by their parents, they're spending PLENTY of money on other hobbies... so "model railroading is too expensive for kids" doesn't hold water in my mind. IMHO, Model Railroading has a marketing and image problem. I think the general perception is that the hobby is "playing with trains", when the modern equivalent of a 60's train kid is interested in things like what is currently branded as the "maker" and craft movement. Which is ironic because MRR is very much a "maker" type thing. I really think if we could show the world that MMR is in fact a "maker/craft" type thing and not a "toy" thing, it would be much more widely accepted. I talked to my kids about this earlier this evening. My daughter was actually rather incensed at the idea that her generation is buried in their video games... her friends are far too busy writing poems and plays, going on photo shoots, and volunteering at the local humane society. My son was quick to point out that many of his friends enjoy building things (there's that "maker" thing again) just as much as (or more than) the video games. And even one of the currently most popular video games (Minecraft) is really a "building" or "making" game. I think the demand is there, but we're just not marketing the hobby right.
I agree. But it's a job which involves everyone: Manufacturers, distributors, retailers and consumers. The first three need to step outside of their comfort zone, the known in-hobby media and pursue a very public campaign. Not just aimed at their very own sales, but targeted at creating excitement about this hobby in general. I mean more than just a few stray ads at Christmas. Consumers are already doing a fairly good job, via swap meets and shows. Even the railroads themselves could take a part. They probably don't see it, but this is a good way to attract future employees. A choke point to growth will be limited runs. If people cannot get product, without a struggle, all will be for naught. You can't grow amid shortages.
Totally, totally agree, with the caveat that the "angle" needs to shift (IMO) intentionally away from "toy trains" and towards the constructive / creative / artistic / collaborative / social aspects. "toy trains" is going to be a tough image to toss -- and maybe we shouldn't lose it altogether -- but I think we must at least de-emphasize it. I'm concerned about that too. You're right that lack of supply will be an issue... you're right that this will require manufacturers to take some risks in pursuit of growth. But if they / we can get the market trend headed in the right direction, it's a win for everyone.
"... you're right that this will require manufacturers to take some risks in pursuit of growth." That ship has sailed...or we wouldnt have the preorder system...which is set in stone...JMO
I think there is something else missing in this discussion; and that is TRAINS. Oh sure, we all know they are still out there and essential to the economic well being of the country. But, except for the NE Corridor and urban mass transit, how many people, and kids, think of the train as anything special? When most of us were growing up, passenger travel was still a major aspect of the railroads, or had been recently. But as we get further away from that era, the allure is fading. Sure, there is Amtrak, but you don't have the competition for passengers, so there is limited incentive to make passenger travel appealing and in the public consciousness. In other countries, however, the modernization and allure of train travel, or even simply the everyday necessity of it, keeps trains in the public mind. We got a glimpse of this, once again, with that Amtrak commercial a couple years ago, with the kid voicing the problems of air travel, and the traffic jams on the highway, but today's passenger service is not what makes one yearn for trains (toy, model or 1:1) The success of model trains in, for example, Japan shows that model railroading can still be viable. It amazes me, when I am there, to go into toy stores or department stores, and see the number of train sets available. Here, except for Thomas and LEGO, one is hard pressed to find them. But where rail travel exists, the model market still does well. To keep companies interested in marketing lower and mid range products, there has to be a market for them. And that means restoring the "magic" as well. I will stay out of the political discussion of hi-speed rail, here, but I believe that the resurgence of the hobby will be tied to its success.
