Myself, I vote for the AZL F59 ex-aequo with the AZL SD70 and the MTL GP35 (I don't own yet any GP7 nor GP9 so I can't say for these).... Dom
OK, no problem - you made it cheaper to produce and kept the price down - great. So, if I want a cheap locomotive, I'll buy a MTL. If I want something that is correct, I'll buy an AZL. Let the market decide.
If I want one whos trucks can pivot both directions and still make it more than once around a test track without stalling, I'll buy MTL. I hope AZL's "Production Run" corrects the inconsistant operations of the GP-7. The pre production run is a mixed bag. It is a pretty loc, though. Dan S.
My, my, quite the first post here. Mature modelers understand that all models have tradeoffs and compromises, therefore if "correct" is the term to be utilized it had better be backed up with a whole lot of facts.
For me, if the model overall looks great and the measurements are not WAY off I'm happy as a can be. Some details and things don't always look right if it is in true scale in these small Z-Scale models. It's all about the elusions on the model and how it overall looks and feels in my eye that makes it a good or bad model for me. As in some off the details on the "new" Marklin Casey Jones Silver editions that are not as good as the old one. And some off the new details are better then the old one. Both are pretty good looking but overall I think the old Casey looks better then the new one.
Crack Me Up! You GuyZ crack me up with all of this comparison stuff. Even got Big Daddy chiming in on this one!!! Wo! Big Daddy!! I now have four GP35's, one Happy Birthday, one BN and two Santa Fe. I do not run the Happy Birthday loco but about twice a year. But the other three all run at different speeds. Close, but all are different. From what I have heard, I am lucky not to have any running problems with them. I do not own any GP7's or GP9's yet and don't fore see it in my near future unless employment opportunities change. Crossing fingers! I do plan on getting one for myself, and two for my Better Half. She is from Maine and to get her more involved with Z scale I am slowly building her a B&M and MEC railroad. As far as AZL, I have two C44-9's, BNSF H2 & Santa Fe Warbonnet, and one BNSF Warbonnet SD75i. What I have is not much compared to alot of you guyZ out there. If ever I have to sell my Z, Heaven Forbid, the C44's will be the last things to go!!! All of these AZL locos run at different speeds. The Santa Fe slips badly of straight track without a load. The H2 is a pulling Monster and can lap any loco for it must be equipped with NO2 or something similar for it is a Speed Demon!!! All of my locos are different when it comes to speed. One of these days I hope to have a DCC system. Then I can tame that speed!! Till then, it's DC for ME. ----------------------------------------------------------------- It's a shame that Z scale, as small as it is, has developed some pretty big rivals amongst the two major Z companies out there, and I am not talking about Marklin!!! As I read these entries about the comparison of AZL to MTL I see three views. #1 the people who are non biased and are stating their true finding about these locos. #2 the people who are biased Pro MTL and/or will defend them for having a more affordable loco . #3 and the people who are biased Pro AZL and/or will defend their goal to develop a more prototypical loco. Some of the sentiment is almost forseen as a hatred for the other. Sometimes so HOT that it could set off fires thereby burning down Trestle Bridges to the ground. It's actually disturbing!! Saw this stuff on the original Yahoo Z_Scale group before Trainboard and Z Central started being a major Z forum. We haven't seen any MTL vs Marklin hate filled messages in quite a long time. Now it seems the messages are MTL vs AZL and I don't forsee any end to it. Plain and Simple, if you are majorly biased, and do not like an item MTL or AZL has introduced, Just Don't Buy It!!! If you bought it, Ebay will take it off your hands!!!!! This is me in a nut shell: Modern (No Roofwalks) vs Other Eras, Civil War, and Deep Wood early 1900 Logging!!! Till I build my 4-4-0 the "General" Loco, and a Shay/Climax Zn3, I am biased all Modern and will voice such opinion when necessary. Where is the Love!!!!!!!!! Hobo Tim
Hey Tim Great points here, well thought out and communicated. Rob and I are friends and suspect we respect each other the same. We do some jousting from time to time, but we both know there's a ton of room out there to expand into Z. We both are in the business of making money for our respective companies and have to think about what we want our product mix to be. There's no guarantee either of us will be in business tomorrow, so we have to think inwards some when it comes to picking products. Picking sides...sure, that happens and it's generally divided along friendships or comfort levels with what is offered. I don't think either of us compromised for the sake of making something cheap, engineering and design decisions are made in isolation and then we roll the dice and hope we did something right. Steve AKA Big Daddy64 (still think that's his hat size) was poking fun at the whole thing, and I think it's good that we all have a good time with this. I also understand you wanting to avoid any of this turning into a hate fest or having everyone here to endure what I have to over on the Atlas Forum sometimes. Paul Graf has done a Hurculean job of keeping the Nudniks from running away with the Forum, but there's still a good amount of MTL Bashing still going on there. When ever I start to feel a bit smug about what we do here, I go on the Atlas Forum and get a reality check. Good post Tim!! Joe MTL
OUCH!!! ) Keeping Price Down: Making good products affordable. Cheap: adj., cheap·er, cheap·est. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive. Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant. Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money. Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars. Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs. Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap. Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster. Stingy; miserly. Not sure our products fit any of the definitions of Cheap... Have a nice day Joe MTL PS...If Big Daddy gets wind of this, there'll be hell to pay )
OK Friends let me say this. As a Customer it's my right to compare Products I want to buy. No matter if this Products are Cars, TV's or Trains. So what's wrong if I or somebody mention that a Engine is to large or a bit out of shape? I've bought the AZL GP7 and the MTL GP9 and I'm sure when both companys come out with more Roadnames I'll buy them. Last but not least, in essence, competition helps businesses to get better results.
I agree Jurg, honest, well thought out reviews are necessary and welcome, I just don't like shots for the sake of shots if you know what I mean. We can disagree on the size of a hinge, everyone had different levels of need in this hobby and between AZL and MTL at the moment, thoses needs are being met. All in all we have it pretty good right now!! Cheers Joe
We have it so good I think we have it so good now in Z that folks are getting more and more picky and less and less greatful for what is being done. Just a few short years ago we were all happy just to see one new release a year from each of the "big 3" Z manufacturers. Now, we just want what we want and we want it as inexpensively as possible and more perfect than the prototype. I personally consider myself in the unbiased camp, as Tim put it. Every new product we see come out has plusses and minusses. It is something of a personal decision how we value those plusses and minusses. Of course this year, for me and Tim, it's a moot point since we can't afford anything because so much is being released. ;-) Randy
OK Guys. Everyone put the armor down and go read the August 2007 MODEL RAILROAD. Three pages [Actually 1 plus two half's] of MTL's new GP9. Full color and nice comments. Only negative comment is "they sell out too fast". ...don
My fault. MODEL RAILROAD NEWS [The newspaper size publication - although it is shrinking compliments of the US Post Office rates] Page 24 - 25 -26 ...don
:thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: We've come a long way from funky Marklin F7's. First AZL with the expensive brass locos, but at least we had choices. Then AZL got into injection with the F59, and MTL followed suit. Even Marklin is getting back in the act (a bit) LOTS of choices. The AZL GP-7 vs. MTL GP-9 is the first time we have had a real head-to-head comparison. It is fascinating to see the different directions that these two companies have taken. I hope they both have success, and that the competition drives better models for us in the future. peace
Myself I've 5 units (1UP, 1SP, 1ATSF, 2BN) and a spare chassis, and all of them run fine and mostly at the same speed.....I must be VERY lucky!:teeth: Dom
Ditto! I want to congratulate and to cheer one more time both MTL and AZL for what they have done and what they are doing and planning for the american prototype Z scale!:thumbs_up: Dom
