Hi folks, it has been three weeks since anyone posted anything in here. I have received a really neat photo from Roger Karns, who lives in Oneonta, NY and has some black and white negatives he is wanting to share. This one, of Hudson 5207, is pretty nice. Can any of you identify the site? I thought it was along the Mohawk, but now believe it is the Hudson. Whoever took it was in the water.
It appears to be a 2-track main, so I doubt that it's anywhere on the Hudson Division. Although the rock structure looks similar to some areas in the upper Hudson Valley. Definitely not on the Harlem ... all of our Hudsons were ex-B&A J-2's numbered in the low 500's, and we didn't have big enough bodies of water to whip up wave action like that Don't remember any late steam and passenger on the West Shore. So it's probably in one of those places w-a-y out west like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, or in the indian territory (shudder) of Illinois [ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>
Certainly not anywhere along the Mohawk where I fan. It was four-tracks through there. Could be the Hudson, the east shore line, now run by Amtrak. Somewhere between Albany and Hudson proper. Either that or I have to agree with Hank.
It looks like snow on the ground, so it is winter. There seems to be a large oil storage tank right above the Railway Express car, and a cupola to a Courthouse sticking up above the telephone pole. And with the water running up against the rocks going downhill, the Hudson must be going South in the morning. The shadow behind the smokebox is very distinct, so it does not appear to be fuzzy like it would be in the evening haze. He is up on the mainline and there is a lower siding between him and the creek. It appears to be a railing to a bridge along the bottom of the photo, so the photographer must be standing on a gross-over bridge, probably one used to service a signal, since there does not look like room for a service road on the track side of the river. I may be mistaken, but it looks like old Leroy shoveling snow out the fireman's side.
Johnny, isn't Sing-Sing (Ossining) south of Harmon in the four-track electrified territory? Watash, I agree that it does look like snow in the foreground, but the bushes at the base and on top of the cliff, and the trees in the background appear to be fully leafed which would indicate summer. Corey, I forgot that the Hudson division was two-track above Hudson (or was it Poughkeepsie?). On the other hand, the location could be on the Boston & Albany. Look at the shadow of the left marker light on the smoke box face. It appears to be at about a 60 degree angle. Also the shadow is short, indicating that the sun is at right-angle to the loco. This could indicate high-noon in mid-summer for the eastern New York State and New England area, with the train running west. The rock structure is typical for that area. Furthermore, the Boston section of name trains often used run-through NYC locos. Looking at the consist, 9 cars including an REA car would indicate a long-distance name train. I can't make out if one of the cars in the middle has stacks which might indicate a diner ... [ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>
I'm not sure if there are 4 tracks near Ossining. but that sure looks like the landscape along the Hudson. Sing Sing just sounded fun! When the lights dim, someone's gittin' the chair!v
Hey guys, I'm not sure that there aren't four tracks there, just not all visible. Hank, not on the B&A, wrong serial number and driver size on the Hudson. B&A's were numbered 600-625 or thereabouts, and had 75 inch drivers and big ugly square sand domes. And Watash, I believe that IS Leroy shovelling.
Another reason for not being the B&A is that there are no rivers, and the only thing CSX nee B&A crosses is a resevoir, with no cliffs. This is the reason I think it's the Hudson. Watash made a good analysis, but I think it's northbound, mid afternoon in the late summer. Shadow is not too long, but long enough, and the sun would be in the west-southwest. I still think north of Hudson or Pokip, since they had the freight main on the other (west) side of the river, where Selkirk is, hence the two tracks since there wasn't as much commuter stuff north. Just NYC-Albany here, plus other extensions from that. I think I remember seeing a book with photos of trains just south of Rensselaer with only 2 tracks. Have to go check it out again.
I found some shots in Staufer's "Thoroughbreds" taken near Peekskill, and the rock wall looks the same, there are two tracks. What do you think?
Can you scan one and put it up? Talked with some other folks today, they seemed to think it was 4 tracks basically from NYC to points west of Syracuse. I found the book I was looking for, but the picture was of West Albany hill, and was 4 tracks. Also, what is the date on the photo (both of them)? They started to take up some track in the late 50s.
The NYC ran freight to/from Manhattan over the Hudson Division well into the 50's. Through freights crossed the river about 20 miles south of Albany over the Castleton Cutoff, providing direct access with Selkirk and bypassing Albany. It's possible that the Hudson Division was reduced to two tracks between Castleton and Rensselaer after the bridge was built in 1925. However, I know that the Division was continuous four-track between GCT and at least as far north as Poughkeepsie until the mid-1950's. Also every photo that I have of the Division (and my memory) indicates that all four tracks were at the same grade and of the same quality. I don't think the line that ran on the west side of the Hudson between Selkirk and Hoboken, NJ was part of the Hudson Division. It was known as the "West Shore Line", although that may not have been its official NYC designation. By the way, many NYC steam locos operated on the B&A. I have a photo of an NYC Mohawk entering Boston South Station taken by Ed Nowak in 1946. Also other photos of NYC steam passing through Chatham, NY on the B&A during the 30's and 40's. [ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>
Corey, here's one from Staufer's Thoroughbreds. I must give him credit as well as the late photographer, Ed May. Scans out of books are always poor. Unfortunately I don't know the dates of either photo. This one is Peekskill, and I see the telephone poles are on the opposite side of the tracks from the original one; however, I have never seen so many cross pieces on poles. There are 6 in the original, 5 in this one. It all points to Hudson Valley. The white in the original is probably fresh ballast (Watash's snow) as the Central was good at keeping ballast up. And Hank, you are right about the Central engines running on the B&A. I forget how much I have forgot about this ancient history. [ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]</p>
Yeah, seems like this is a similar area. Could never have been 4 tracks there, too narrow. I guess the lower track in the first picture may just be from the photographer's angle. Those poles probably carried telegraph lines as well. Out on the Mohawk, they still have 3 cross pieces with wires, even though they are inactive (wish they'd take em down, they screw up half of my shots!).
Fitz, that's a great photo. I agree that scanning a printed photo loses so much due to the original having been screened for printing at somewhere between 33 and 50 dpi. Unfortunately, I'm sure the location is not the Peekskill area. I have Ed Nowak photos that show four-track at least up through Poughkeepsie. Also, there was the "triple" tunnel at Cold Spring, about 10 miles north of Peekskill, a double-track tunnel spanning the two center tracks, and two single-track tunnels, one for each outside track. Now, the photo could be on the West Shore, because I have found evidence that the WS ran a few passenger trains before and during WW-II, especially to support West Point and Stewart Air Base traffic. As for the number of cross-arms on the telegraph poles, I don't know what conclusions can be drawn. The poles on the Harlem Division below Brewster also had an unholy number of cross-arms. I don't have any idea why, except perhaps for signal control .... the Central had a potfull of signals on their high-traffic lines, even on the Harlem south of Brewster. A question for the "upstate" NYC historians - did the Central run any Hudsons on the Adirondack Division? In other words, could either photo be from around the Thousand Lakes region or eastern Lake Ontario?
Today I received the actual photograph from Roger Karns. Boy, is that spectacular. Dug out the Nowak photography Volume two and now I'm convinced it's Peekskill. The buildings in the background, behind the end of the train give it away. Nowak's pix show a sperical tank about where that water tank is in the photo. Next problem is WHEN was it taken? Really looking at the photo in detail, 5207 is a J-1b, and is as-built with two air tanks on the fireman's side, Walschaerts valve gear, the original 6 wheel truck tender, but then it gets confusing. The lettering on engine and tender is sans-serif. When did they change from serif to sans-serif? When did the J-1b's get Baker valve gear? She still has the small sand dome in the photo, too. Consist has a milk car, no baggage/mail, then a heavyweight coach, three lightweight Pullmans in 1938 20th Century paint, then four heavyweights. A local? When?
A couple of interesting things about this photo is that the engine still has it's Walsherts valve gear even thou it has been re-lettered in the post 1936 style.(Very few Hudsons went to scrap with the original valve gear, this may have been one.I don't have any other shots of 5207 to show it any other way. Although I do a have shot of 5251 with late lettering and Walsherts.) Some of the cars are post 1938 streamline and that looks like an NYC milk car rather than an REA express reefer which I don't think would be on a main passenger train. Just my thoughts. Neat shot though.
Well, guys, I liked that photo so much I ordered a big (12X20) copy of it from Roger and requested that he send me his contact print proofs. Man, he has some winners there. He has some of Niagaras in about the same spot, a meet between two Hudsons, a Mohawk, several different Erie locomotives including a double headed Pacific pax train, and Corey, a D&H 4-6-0 Camelback. If anyone is interested, post here or email me off line and I will send Roger's email address. Heck I'll just put it on here. <rkathome@dmcom.net> rkathome@dmcom.net
