If you just can't get to sleep and you would like to know more about the design, construciton and other aspects of the: Grey and Grandure. Grey and Grandure Threads For those with insomnia: Grey and Grandure: Construction http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=69249 Grey and Grandure: Wiring http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=80569 ******************************************************************* N scale No Time period Plan loosly based on one in plan # 10, “Pittsburg, Midvale, and Ironton” on page 14 in Kalmbachs 101 Track Plans that I built in highschool. Thinking of putting it on a hollow core door. I have a lot of "legacy" equipment about 30 years old. So not sure yet about c80 vs c55. I'll be doing a lot of testing and cost comparisons first. Manual Turnouts. Any sugestions for the mechanism? Gryphin's Phase One, Plan One 7' x 30". Light vertical Lines about 6" Curves as large as possible Turnouts Large as possible Yard and Engine terminal show as "abstract" Long smooth curve in back will become a focal point for photographs and such. I may slightly raise this and lower the Raw Materials and Car works area to increase the effect. Spur where "Raw Materials Source" is located may lead to expansion. In the short run possibley a fiddle yard on an L extension to the right. Long term will see this as the middle or one end of a much larger layout. Ideas suggestions? [ April 04, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Grey One ]
I had spotted two things you might want to change, then realized that they could be combined together. First, you may want a switching lead for your yard, so the switcher doesn't foul the main line all the time. Extend the first yard track (the second from the bottom) to the left and around the curve, with a crossover between the main and the yard track as far to the left as you can place it, before the curve starts. Second, the spur to the Gryphin Car Works plant ends up at the rear of the yard, and you have no way to pull an engine off the train. I'd bring the spur down and connect it to the switching lead. Odd are, you won't be running both at the same time; and even if you do, you can hide the switcher in the engine facility to get it temporarily out of the way. You've got a good start on your railroad. Don't think that you have to rush to finish it. I suspect that, once you start running trains, progress might slow to a crawl! Pat
AKrrnut, You are right. I forgot a run around and I don't want to foul the main. For various reasons including: I want to avoid a reverse loop wiering sidturation I want the switcher to have to "travel" to deliver and pick up the cars. Depending on how much space everything takes up I may put a Run a round between the top yard track and the one below it. I may also put one from just before the Building Materials spur to the Raw Materials spur parrallelsing the main. Gryphin and Grandure RR, Phase One, Plan B Skriggly lines represent "geographical things" They Maybe a stream or a hill or a ? Thanks again. PS: the first sketch was done in a notebook then scanned in. All other changes have been done in mspaint. ewwww. [ 06. November 2004, 12:07: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
I had two concerns with your Plan A. But see that with the runaround on that spur, and switches to allow escape from the stub ended yard, your Plan B is now looking very good. Boxcab E50
Your "barrier" inbetween could be giant silos (the Saginaw Tx variety) or some long factory/businesses.
Thanks Boxcab and Mike. Here's another variation where I have streetched the envelope of do-a-ble. Gryphinn and Grandure Phase One, Plan 3 I moved the throat of the yard back about a foot to gain more storage space. I"ll have no idea if I can do it till I have laid the track out. Does anyone know just by looking if the new throat arangement is do-a-ble in terms of laying out the track? I also dropped the yard so it can pass under the mainline to the right for the same reason. I don't know if I have skills to cut a hole in the door and support the track for this. Anyone know if this is a bad idea? Will I run into mechanical / derailment issues with this? Should I consider going with open benchwork instead of the hollow core door? [ 07. November 2004, 13:05: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
I have a feeling that moving the yard throat won't be the best solution. I can see where trains coming off the main, trying to enter the yard, would require a lot of manipulations. The idea of extending your yard at right can work. But I don't think you'll want to cut into the door. What about raising the main track? An easy way to see if you're close to fitting, is chalking the center line for the proposed track onto your door. Get a good straightedge. (Yard stick?) And make up a compass for the curves. If you make an error, or need a change, wipe the chalk off with a damp cloth. Boxcab E50
Boxcab, you pushed the button that generated this version: Phase 1, Plan 1E I see traffic running counter clockwise. Since this is to be the western edge of a larger layout it is likely that traffic will arrive near the “Raw materials spur”. It is probably not prototypical but I expect the yard lead will be used to assemble larger trains. The yard lead is _not_ a passing siding. I realize this could become an issue but we shall see. Instead of the western terminus it may become a short line / interchange point on the larger system. Oh, and thanks for the input on dropping the yard. What do folks think about mounting the whole layout on thick foam and then dropping the yard or am I just asking for it? Boxcab, thanks for the thoughts. Any more? The Grateful Gryphin [ 07. November 2004, 22:25: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
Grey, I can see problems with that line crossing the yard..... You realise that the 2 tracks on the bottom edge will have to be on the same level because of the linking turnouts. If you drop the yard below the mainline, you will ahve to be careful where you uncouple, because that entire yard is going to be on a fair grade to get down to a level that provides clearance for the mainline. A yard with that amount of grade on it would see my rolling stock hitting the end buffers at about 40mph..... Just think.... uncouple at the start of each siding, or even using delayed uncoupling, and the cars have a 'free run' all the way to the bottom of the siding.... they can generate an awful lot of speed in 5 feet..... To offset the amount of gradient in the yard, you could always have the mainline climb while the yard falls...then you are bound to have a problem with the turnouts just left of the bridge.... it will be on the grade....and double turnouts on grades are not a good thing!
disisme, Thanks. that would have been a disaster. Hmm, So if I drop anything it will have to be the 3 center tracks. I intend to use my GHA, (Giant Hand Action) to uncouple but it is still an issue I need to watch for. Now I can see raising the far side of the loop just a little and dropping the industrial section into a shallow valley. Looks like if I want these features I better go with open bench work which in turn means getting a carpenter involved. eww. Ya know, there is a lot to be said for flat. "Ick" is one of the things.
It would certainly work, running in one direction. But hope you won't limit yourself. Remember that most railroads have through trains that run from A to B. And their counterpart that runs B to A. Of course there are locals that go out and back in one or more days. A to C and back to A. Opposing direction moves would add a lot of possibility to your operations. I still believe you can build the yard on a flat surface. Such as the door. And then elevate the main. What about exploring foam risers? Such as the kits offered by Woodland Scenics? (Other brands?) Or cut your own from a sheet of foam? A lot of ideas being stirred into the stew pot! Boxcab E50
Hmm, Nice chuncks of foam, slices of road bed, a broth of hobby glue and water simmering.... /wakes up. Oh, now where was I? Maby I can raise it. If my drawings are even close to accurate I have 3 1/2 to 4 feet from the "throat" of the yard to the "bridge" to get her up. Trains will never, (er; seldom), be more than 3 feet long so... with a couple of the Kato's, (waves to wig wag), that just arrived the grade should not be an issue going East, (counter clock wise), and West will be a gentle 2 percent grade. Still better have the yard switcher in place to grab the cars so when the west bound drop off thier cars on that bottom track they can uncouple and pull away without the cars following them. Hmm, this is moring faster than i thought. Better order that track and roadbed, lots of nails, hobby glue, and schedual a week off.
My only other suggestion is to end the stage tracks on the inside of that bridge, otherwise your options for types of bridges shrinks (as I'm personally finding out!)
Thanks Mike, That would solve a couple of issues but one is not bridge design. When folks see the designs coming out of Gryphin Car Works it will be amazing if I am not ostrisized or at least never taken seriously again. As such I'm not toooo worried what folks think of my bridge design. To give folks an idea: 1. Raw Materials Plant receives loads from the Raw Materials Source. This might look like ground up PC board. 2. Factory receives output from Raw Materials Plant. Maybe slices of PC board. Got to love Dremel 3. Gryphin Car Works receives output from Factory. More PC board 4. Gryphin Car Works build unusual freight and passenger cars. Built of? You guessed it: PC board 5. Gryphin receives accolades from www.trainboard.com N scalers forum Well, I can dream. The various parts will look more and more like what you would see if you open your computer. /Hopes folks will still talk to me "What say you"? Latest version: Phase 1 Plan F [ 09. November 2004, 14:02: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
Gryphin, Your track plan is coming along nicely! I do have a couple additional suggestions: 1. I think you need a crossover between the main line and the first siding on the lower left end of the railroad. You'll probably have to use curved turnouts - fortunately Peco makes some nice ones in N scale. This way, a train traveling counter-clockwise around the main can enter the yard without backing up or going through the siding for half the railroad. For that matter, you could probably shorten that siding on the back side (at the top) just a little bit, unless your trains are going to be fairly long. 2. You'll never get enough clearance for the main to pass over the yard at the lower right corner in the short distance between the crossover and the bridge. I'd move that crossover to the left, maybe as far as the middle of the railroad (at least two feet from where it is). This may cause some operational problems in bringing a train out of the yard, but not nearly as many as trying to get a train up an extremely steep grade. 3. Come to think of it, you do need to have the siding on the left side fairly long, since it's also your switching lead. Other than that, I think your plan looks really nice. Keep up the good work! Pat
Thanks, Update: Phase 1 Plan G Pat, Thanks for the input. 1) I see tha entire length from the cross over at the bottom right to the turn out Near the Raw Materials Source as the Yard Lead. I expect counter clockwise trains to enter the lead at the top. Part of this is to "emphasise"this being a valley separate from the main. I don't expect I'll be using it for a siding but I might. More like it will double as a staging track (if that is the right term). Basicaly where I'll put trains waiting to leave. 2) You are correct. It was poorly drawn. Only the 3 center tracks will pass under the bridge. The input is really apriciated. You have saved me from myself. [ 09. November 2004, 18:37: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
Also, if I'm reading the picture correctly, the crossover in the bottom right area (just to the left of the bridge) is not possible unless there's a 10% grade ... or unless each of the bottom 2 tracks are elevated. In either case, those 7 tracks in the bunch are very VERY close together - and that's fine if thats what you want. Also, just thinking about what the transition will be from the elevated to the lower levels - having a hard time thinking about those options. just a vertical brick wall? There's no horizontal lattitude that could be used for a rock slope or something
I hate asking for advice. When I told my mother I was she got worried and wondered if I was sick. My hollow core door is 28”s, (not 30). That means that on the left end: Outside Curve – 13” Radius Second Curve – 11” Radius Interior Curve – 9” Radius Not a big issue if I don’t use big engines, cars or long trains. Mike, you are right about both issues.. FLAT = Less trouble, Faster Construction, Getting Trains Running Smoothly, Learning the Basics. Nice: Flat Earth Version [ 09. November 2004, 23:00: Message edited by: Grey Gryphin ]
Nothing saying you cant do a bridge, or two, just not over the other tracks! Looking at your layout, I really love the upper spurs... if it was my decision, I would take all but 2 or 3 of the bottom stage lines out, and play up the top spurs so that they take up more of the inside area. I could totally see some movement going on there! Just my 2 cents [ 10. November 2004, 04:41: Message edited by: nscale_lover ]
Mike, Thanks. I agree about the bridges. I'm going to "KIS", (Keep it Simple). BTW: what software did you do the plan in? You pumped that out right quick. My current thoughts on contruction is: Table / Surface: Hollow Core Door with Two, (maybe Three layers of foam on the door. Stages: 1) Main Line, Yard Lead, and part of yard 2) Rest of yard which may or may not drop an inch at the stub end. 3) Engine Terminal 4) The "Industrial" area. Depending on how things went with putting the 3 yard tracks on an incline I will consider putting this area an inch or two lower into the "valley". Plan with contruction stages: Gryphin and Grandure Constrution Stages
